[DGD] the building blocks of grandiose worlds: geometry

[Raymond Jennings]

Aha, just read part 2 and it seems you already used them as inspiration.
 Good choice :)



On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino at gmail.com>wrote:

> I've starred your post in my gmail, it sounds like useful background
> information.
>
> It seems also that your work at least somewhat parallels the SkotOS model
> of proxes and prepositions.  Some of their articles may also suit you for
> reading.  I've already read most of them myself.
>
> Thanks ^^.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:39 AM, James Smith <jgsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's been a couple months since I was able to dive into code, but I've
>> been
>> trying to work out geometry based relationships rather than simple
>> environment containment.
>>
>> I have a few blog posts on the subject:
>>
>> http://www.second-contract.com/2013/02/scenes-and-settings/
>> http://www.second-contract.com/2013/03/scenes-and-settings-part-2/
>> http://www.second-contract.com/2013/03/proximity-and-movement/
>>
>> http://www.second-contract.com/2013/07/describing-scenes-paths-and-terrains/
>>
>> Some code is available on github:
>> https://github.com/jgsmith/second-contract
>>
>> If those might be helpful.
>>
>> -- Jim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Raymond Jennings <shentino at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > So the gist of veiling is that insider and outsider is inherently
>> > transitive, which is why it can be implied.
>> >
>> > If object A is outside object B, and B is outside C, then we already
>> know A
>> > is outside C and we don't even have to ask.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino at gmail.com
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > I should probably point out that in this process I'm trusting geometry
>> > > queries to be honest.  Real geometry is consistent and allows for
>> this to
>> > > work.  This scheme will fail in a hurry if geometry handlers lie to
>> the
>> > > relation processing.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Raymond Jennings <
>> shentino at gmail.com
>> > >wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I agree, it's vague ^^  I'm still trying to come up with the
>> terminology
>> > >> too.
>> > >>
>> > >> The basic idea is that I keep track of geometric (topologic?)
>> relations
>> > >> between neighboring objects.
>> > >>
>> > >> WRT one object that holds the relation mapping, another object can
>> be:
>> > >>
>> > >> 1.  An insider (completely contained by us)
>> > >> 2.  An intersecter (our boundaries criss cross)
>> > >> 3.  An outsider (completely containing us)
>> > >> 4.  An overlapper (our boundaries are perfectly congruent)
>> > >> 0.  No relation at all
>> > >>
>> > >> The default is 0, which as a nil is not even tracked, and any object
>> not
>> > >> in our relation map is assumed to be 0.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now the immediately useful part:
>> > >>
>> > >> First, direct neighbors:
>> > >>
>> > >> Objects in sets 1, 2, or 4 have parts of themselves inside us, and
>> > >> qualify for internal actions.
>> > >> Objects in sets 2, 3, or 4 have parts of themselves outside us, and
>> > >> qualify for external actions.
>> > >>
>> > >> Second, indirect neighbors:
>> > >>
>> > >> Additionally, objects in sets 2, 3, or 4 may have objects of their
>> own
>> > >> inside them, or in their own 1-, 2-, or 4- set.
>> > >>
>> > >> The 1's, 2's, and 4's of our 2's, 3's, and 4's are external
>> neighbors.
>> > >>
>> > >> The 2's, 3's, and 4's of our 1's, 2,s and 4's are our internal
>> > neighbors,
>> > >> and the rules of geometry (I think anyway) imply that those indirect
>> > >> relations will also show up in our own 1's, 2's, or 4's
>> > >>
>> > >> By querying these lists, I can find neighbors.  This collection of
>> > >> neighbors is the list of candidates for things like visibility,
>> > >> interaction, targeting by nouns, and so on.
>> > >>
>> > >> That is the immediate usefulness.
>> > >>
>> > >> The second intended benefit:  Any outsider or insider acts as a veil
>> > >> which hides everything behind it from processing, which in a sizable
>> > world
>> > >> can obviously cut way down on the O(N^2) potentials, since anything
>> > >> affecting us from beyond that veil (no sirius black jokes please) has
>> > to go
>> > >> through the veil to get to us, and since the outsider or insider is
>> > already
>> > >> keeping track of us in its own relation list, anything that cares to
>> > find
>> > >> us can do so easily once it hits the veil and peeks behind it.
>> > >>
>> > >> This veiling effect also helps save on processing time when geometry
>> > >> relations need to be checked for updating after an object moves.  I
>> > don't
>> > >> have to do a nasty O(N^2) check against everything else.  If I change
>> > from
>> > >> a 1 to a 2 for object B, I only have to look at object B's 1's and
>> 2's
>> > and
>> > >> 4's to see who my new relations might be.  Similiarly, if I become a
>> 1
>> > of
>> > >> object B, I never have to look outside object B again to check
>> anything.
>> > >>
>> > >> This is all theoretical so far, but my prototype is working well
>> enough
>> > >> even now for the time being.
>> > >>
>> > >> As a quick and dirty example, let's say you have a few objects:
>> > >>
>> > >> object A is Fort Providence, and is a municipal zone.
>> > >> object B is the county of Kolechistan
>> > >> object C is Kolechistan's first police precinct
>> > >> object D is Kolechistan's fourth fire district
>> > >> object E is the state of Imporiton
>> > >> object F is the great and glorious nation of Triskellia
>> > >> object G is the state of Oregon.
>> > >>
>> > >> A is completely inside B, and also completely inside C and D
>> > >> B is completely inside E, and contains C and D
>> > >> C and D, being under different departments of Kolechistan, are
>> > >> intersecting each other, completely contain A, and are completely
>> > inside B
>> > >> E contains A
>> > >> F contains E
>> > >> F contains G
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, I have some optimizations already.
>> > >>
>> > >> Because E completely surrounds B, it doesn't even show up as a
>> relation
>> > >> at all for A, C, or D.  A, C, and D list B as their ousider, and can
>> > safely
>> > >> ignore anything outside of B.  Which means that anything inside
>> > Kolechistan
>> > >> doesn't have to worry about the rest of Imporiton, or for that
>> matter,
>> > >> anything outside it such as F (Triskellia) and G (oregon).  Object B
>> > acts
>> > >> as a veil that hides objects E, F, and G from objects B and C, and
>> > >> therefore from object A.
>> > >>
>> > >> Additinally, anything outside of Kolechistan doesn't need to worry
>> about
>> > >> anything inside of it.  Objects E, F, and G can completely ignore
>> object
>> > >> B's contents, since object E acts as a veil.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now if due to political events, the borders change, I can run a
>> geometry
>> > >> check on any objects.  If the check brings in new neighbors, I can
>> check
>> > >> against them as well, and if relations change I can then look for
>> more
>> > >> candidates.
>> > >>
>> > >> However, I only have to check my neighbors.  If after checking them,
>> no
>> > >> new candidates pop up, I can stop.  Anything that remains an outsider
>> > >> cannot possibly have anything interesting outside itself, and
>> likewise
>> > for
>> > >> insiders.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, if something happened outside that needed our attention, that
>> > >> something would first have to pierce the borders of our outsiders,
>> and
>> > if
>> > >> it did that, it would then check our outsider's relations (including
>> > us).
>> > >>
>> > >> or, to put it back in the example, if a rocket was launched from
>> China
>> > >> and made its way to Fort Providence, you can bet your bones that
>> > >> Triskellia's air force radar would find out about it and the air
>> force
>> > >> would warn Imporiton's governor.  Imporiton's governor, in turn would
>> > >> probably put the police precinct and fire district on high alert by
>> the
>> > >> time the rocket impacted.  Which is to say, that the rocket would
>> have
>> > to
>> > >> go through Triskellia's borders before Imporiton even saw it, and
>> > likewise
>> > >> through Imporiton's borders before the police and fire districts saw
>> it,
>> > >> and then likewise for Fort Providence itself.  Each penetration of a
>> > veil
>> > >> brings up new objects to check for relations, and this process can
>> > recurse
>> > >> as needed until everything resolves.
>> > >>
>> > >> Since the police and fire zones intersect though, Fort Providence
>> still
>> > >> has to put up with jurisdictional squabbles.
>> > >>
>> > >> I hope this clarifies my idea better.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Natasha Koroleva <
>> > >> natasha.i.koroleva at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Kind of vague description. I wonder there is a direction attribute
>> for
>> > >>> the relation (I assume this will be used for to handle exits)?
>> Overlap
>> > >>> includes some sort of index so that you know what is above and below
>> > >>> the object?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Raymond Jennings <
>> shentino at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>> > Ok, so I just implemented very basic geometry processing, that
>> makes
>> > >>> sets
>> > >>> > of objects that are inside, outside, intersecting, overlapping, or
>> > not
>> > >>> > related at all.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > This is the foundation for delegation and object hiding in my
>> > "colossal
>> > >>> > galaxy with detail down to the room" scheme.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > The gist is that for any two objects, object B can be inside
>> object
>> > A,
>> > >>> > outside it, intersecting it, or overlapping it (same position and
>> > >>> shape)
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > Ultimately, the relation list will seed the candidate list when
>> > >>> checking
>> > >>> > for neighbors.
>> > >>> >
>> > >>> > Can anyone see any flaws in this design?
>> > >>> > ____________________________________________
>> > >>> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> > >>> ____________________________________________
>> > >>> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > ____________________________________________
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>> >
>> ____________________________________________
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>
>