[DGD] Where did all the players go?

Tue Dec 12 23:43:27 CET 2017

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On Dec 12, 2017 14:46, "Dread Quixadhal" <quixadhal at gmail.com> wrote:

Nah, let’s make a multiplayer game that puts the screen in
character-by-character mode and uses curses to show a 2D overhead map,
where you can use the vi keys to run around and shoot at, or lob grenades
at, other players.  It could be called Dwork Hunt.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Blain
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 15:43
To: DGD
Subject: Re: [DGD] Where did all the players go?

Let's make a single-player game where you walk around a house and down into
caves, solving puzzles, avoiding lurking creatures that'll eat you in one
round by caring a light source. We can call it Dwork.

On Dec 12, 2017 12:49, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interestingly enough I was hoping that the cloud-server thing (which
> might have been dworkin's early, lwo-inventory using mud) was going to
> be part of this sort of packaged deal.
>
> As the architect of DGD itself being the designer I think that a few
> of the ideas in that project (presently in the git history and/or
> cited on the ML in teh past) are probably meritful.
>
> I noticed something in there for example about continuations.
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Blain <blain20 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So... when do we begin making Dowrkin MUD?  We'll need to showcase our
> > blossoming package distro mudlib, after all.
> >
> > On Dec 12, 2017 11:31, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:56 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:15:38 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
> >>> I was informed by a public post from ChrisA that one of the side
> >>> effects of a persistent world was a load of junk left behind in
> >>> Marrach, including but not limited to heaps of scrolls, and piles of
> >>> food items that should long since have decayed.
> >>
> >> Yes, this was why I mentioned how a persistent world more or less
> requires
> >> enforced decay of things. I made some pretty extensive design for
truely
> > huge
> >> game world with 'managed persistence' where things left alone may decay
> or
> >> otherwise get returned to the 'resource pool'. Managed in that some
> items
> >> might take pretty much forever, others will take a short time.
> >
> > One of the comments found on phantasmal's website talked about a
> > world's "metabolism", and that comment in turn was probably found on
> > this very list in the past.  Noah often pulled notes like that when he
> > was maintainer of the phantasmal site.
> >
> >> As the core for this game world would be generated from a map (either
> >> generated or a 'real' map provided as a file), all the persistence is
> > based on
> >> layers on top of the generated world, where each layer has a different
> > rate of
> >> decay.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> One of the features they could have used DGD for was a persistnet
> >>> world...and they wound up implementing it with a hierarchial
> >>> save_object/load_object structure, plus a few daemons to pick up on
> >>> changed .c files.  Was actually pretty amazing to see how they'd
> >>> worked around missing what DGD has.
> >>
> >> Been there, done that, including the replacing of outdated objects and
> > clones,
> >> transfering internal state (and while at it, saving and reloading
> internal
> >> state over reboots). It can be done, but quickly becomes a mess.
> >
> > Yes, which is why I praise DGD for doing it the easy way.
> >
> >> Yet, when all a game needs is player inventories persisting between
> > sessions
> >> and over reboots, its often what lpmuds do. And while I really like the
> > idea
> >> of a persistent world, many classic muds don't seem to need one, and
for
> >> example due to your first comment, it might not even be desirable (WOTF
> > still
> >> needs work on dealing with random junk lying around)
> >
> > In this game, being able to plant a tree and watch it grow over a
> > month of RL time was immensely satisfying...and even got our druid
> > community lecturing the other PCs about johnny appleseeding
> >
> >
> >>> ...and as a wizard I had not succeeded in avoiding what seems to have
> >>> become an in-joke on their mud.  That of accidentally nuking every
> >>> tree in the world.  Seems to have turned into a rite of passage for
> >>> wizards.
> >
> >> Been there, done that... :-)
> >
> >> Its a risk inherent to most recomile and replace setups. I did at some
> > point
> >> manage to protect my own implementation from this, but.. that was after
> it
> >> having gone wrong more than a few times.
> >
> > Actually this had nothing to do with recompiling or replacing.  It was
> > a fat-fingered command at the wizard prompt. :P
> >
> >> Bart.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 7:24 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
> >>> > For me, it has taken quite some time to wrap my head around the
> > concept and
> >>> > implications of persistence. The first thing to realize is there
> being
> > 2
> >>> > different kinds of persistence involved.
> >>> >
> >>> > - persistent server
> >>> > - persistent world
> >>> >
> >>> > You need the first to build the second, but the fir5st does not
imply
> > the
> >>> > second, there is value in having a persistent server without a
> > persistent
> >>> > world in that you can do updates to the mud without needing
> 'reboots'.
> >>> >
> >>> > With regards to persistent worlds, from a classic lpmud point of
> view,
> > this is
> >>> > typically about 'preserving inventories 'between sessions, and
> > possibly across
> >>> > reboots.
> >>> >
> >>> > While those can be useful if not desirable features, this is really
> > not what a
> >>> > persistent world is about. On a mud implementing a persistent world,
> > you could
> >>> > drop something on some out of the way location, and given nobody
> walks
> > by and
> >>> > picks it up, it will still be there 10 years from now. Not needed
for
> > every
> >>> > game, actuall not even desirable for some games. But for roleplaying
> > games,
> >>> > this can be quite valuable. For games which let players build their
> > own world,
> >>> > this is highly desirable. AT any rate, a persistent world also more
> or
> > less
> >>> > requires dealing with 'enforced' decay of things, ie, the house a
> > player built
> >>> > should, unless maintained, over time become a ruin, and in due time,
> > 'nature'
> >>> > should take it back and return the location to its original shape.
> >>> >
> >>> > This requires being able to maintain the state of every object
> > potentially for
> >>> > many years.
> >>> >
> >>> > Bart
> >>> >
> >>> > On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:33:08 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
> >>> >> I probably don't have to remind everyone of Castle Marrach and
> >>> >> company taking advantage of persistence and runtime upgrading.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I still have high praise for Skotos Tech for those...and I wasn't
> >>> >> kidding when I've often said in the past that they've inspired
> others.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Second Contract for one
> >>> >>
> >>> >> And for antoher, Noah Gibb's very own Phantasmal which I only
> >>> >> inherited when he was overwhelmed by real life.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Kotaka's inspiration goes without saying.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 3:29 AM, Felix A. Croes <felix at dworkin.nl>
> > wrote:
> >>> >> > bart at wotf.org wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>[...]
> >>> >> >> In all fairness, unless you have been running a persistent mud
> for
> > quite a
> >>> >> >> while, or done live database conversions on a running system or
> > such, its
> >>> > very
> >>> >> >> difficult to realize what really needs to happen.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Sometimes new ideas are simply not accepted.  DGD has had
> > persistance and
> >>> >> > runtime upgrading for more than 20 years now.  This doesn't fit
> > into the
> >>> >> > LPmud view, and probably never will.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Regards,
> >>> >> > Felix Croes
> >>> >> > ____________________________________________
> >>> >> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> >> ____________________________________________
> >>> >> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrobjective/
> >>> > http://www.om-d.org/
> >>> >
> >>> > ____________________________________________
> >>> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> ____________________________________________
> >>> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrobjective/
> >> http://www.om-d.org/
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________
> >> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> > ____________________________________________
> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> > ____________________________________________
> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> ____________________________________________
> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
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