[MUD-Dev] New Topic: Butthead features

[clawrenc at cup.hp.com]

Jeff Kesselman <jeffk at tenetwork.com> said:
>JCL wrote:
>>Jeff Kesselman <jeffk at tenetwork.com> said:

>>>Thsi is demcoracy ALA Gilbert and Sullivan's "Trial by Jury".
>>
>>Wonderful!  I had suspected I was the only G&S fan aboard.
>
>You kidding? 

Nahh.  I've dropped enough uncommented upon G&S straight lines here to
raise the sisters.

>At one poitn in late highschool I knew many of the
>librettos by heart, knew ALL of the stories in general, and I still
>can do a handful of the songs :)

<bow>  I have an atrocious memory for song words.  I think I can just
about remember the first four words to, "Mary had a little lamb", or
maybe five at a stretch.

>Your discussion of the different ways the game and society interract
>that follows was inetrsting, my only comment is that i wish I was in
>the position to choose who my players are.  Given that though most of
>my palyers at least arribve at the game "unformed", tjhey are
>lookignon entry to understand "how to play".  

>The roel of teachign them CAN be taken on by an existing stable
>society if ist present but so far i havent been lucky enough to see
>that  develop spontaneously by users actions, and I frabnkly at this
>poitn doubt my user base at elast is capabale of anywhere near the
>sophstication in social skills to do so on their own.

>Thsi leaves at l;east me oin the position, i believe, of having to
>define the social structure and build teh structrue itno teh game
>itself. Ild note in passing that this paralleles my pen and apper
>expereince-- the judge really has to lead the players to a certain
>degree or they just fliunder withotu knowing "what they should do."

>Granted Im probably reachign for a different kind of exp[ereicne then
>you are, although your "justice" system I suspect will have its own
>profound (if troublesome) effect on any p[layer attempts to develop a
>society in your game...

I quoted all that for a specific reason:  I think it makes my point
for me.  You are explicitly, if unconciously, importing a particular
desired social model into your game.  You specifically wish the social
culture which evolves to follow a particular pattern which you have in
mind.  Oh!  You may not care about various and divers details of that
culture, but you still have a concept of what is and is not an
acceptable culture, and wish to inculcate that model in your users,
and are, err, dissappointed when your users don't ascribe to your
model or attempt to build a different (less socially valid/concious
per your model?) society.

This may seem a bit stark.  It is not intended as such.  It
illuminates for me one of the base differences in game design
approach:

  Build something interesting and users will appear to do something
intersting with it.

vs:

  Build something to play /this/ sort of game and represent *that*
sort of environment.

On the face of it I suspect that this is implicit to a __designed__ RP
game (ie game designed for RP as vs GOP), and more specifically to an
RP game where a particular form of RP or an RP in a pre-stated
milleau/character is desired.  

On my end I'm a lot more interested in building what I think might be
an interesting system, and then seeing what people will do with it,
including what social forms, good or bad (however I might judge), they
might build.  In a way its all a grand experiment in providing a soil
and variety of fertilisers, and then standing back to see what
attempts to grow there.

--
J C Lawrence                           Internet: claw at null.net
(Contractor)                           Internet: coder at ibm.net
---------------(*)               Internet: clawrenc at cup.hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...