[MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)

[JC Lawrence]

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:55:03 PST8PDT stad <Ola> wrote:
> coder at ibm.net wrote:

>> If I can ever get the bandwidth problems solved, this will also not
>> be an issue for me.  Everything is logged.  This is a function of
>> DB rollbacks.  A player will be able to select any object and
>> follow it back thru time and see everything that happened to that
>> object, exactly as it happened, exactly as if he were there at the
>> time, or select a location, and see everything that happened there,
>> no matter how minor, exactly as it happened back then.

> An effective way of preventing any valuable social interaction. 

This depends on what you define as a "valuable" social behaviour.
Precisely what is "valuable", and thereby what is then defined as
"of little value" if not "valueless"?

I will agree that this will have a massive social effect.  Quite
simply, I have very little idea what the true import will be.  I do
suspect that the results will be very interesting.

> The
> trouble is, some people are likely to forget and will end up saying
> things they want deleted from records...  

Which is one point I intend to make expressly plain: it will be
technically impossible to remove data from the logs without removing
_ALL_ logged data with that time stamp or earlier.  It just ain't
gonna happen.  If you say or do something in the MUD that you don't
want to exist, then don't do or say it.  Its that simple.  

I expect that the more popular approach will be to use varioua methods
of disguise and subterfuge such that it becomes unclear exactly who
did what and when.  The question of what was done becomes unimportant
-- everyone can see that XXX was done.  The difficult bit will be
determining WHO did XXX.  I'm actively looking forward what they try and do
in this aspect.

> I can imagine the whining in a large scale system.  

Its tough to whine when there are no alternatives.  Well, its tough to
whine with some sort of logic...(never underestimate the ability of a
whiner to whine)  I would also be surprised if the whining amounted to
much once its known that anyone, anywhere, can see anything, anywhen
in the recent past.

Aside: The really interesting and difficult point, and this is one I'm
going to have to address, is the impact of time travellers being able
to freely travel the world, in the past.  Its difficult to make goal
oriented games when any other player can merely revisit past attempts
at that goal and then use that data to crib the current attempt.

> People will start talking in codes.  

Yup!  (Island had a lot of this FWIW).  Isn't it grand?

> The
> funny thing is, teams of foreigners will have an advantage in your
> system. COOL!  :-)

Yup!

> Anyway, people will find work-arounds.  I would simply fill my
> history with lots of garbarge every once in a while to make it
> intractible by cheer information overload.

Remember, they are not actual logs that can be grought up in an editor
and parsed or read, instead the actual progress of time across the
entire MUD world is preserved, and that time track can be rolled back
and reviewed.   

To put this into a RL perspective:

  Give everybody on the planet a time machine.  

  The time machine doesn't actually remove the traveller from the
present, its more like a pair of goggles inside which they can view
the past.

  Use of the time machine is uncontrolled.

  The time machine can freely travel anywhere in the world once it has
moved away from present time into the past.

  The time machine can only travel one week or less back in time.

  People time travelling cannot affect the past.  They are the
proverbial flies on the wall -- they can only receive IO.

> Well, actually, I think I would play your game as a chess only
> system...

I'm not attempting to make a role playing game.  I'm merely attempting
to make an interesting and amusing game which embodies certain
mechanics which I find interesting.  I find RP essentially irrelevant
in that task -- its just not something I see as a design criteria.

> ...and use external programs for chatting...  

Yup, I wouldn't be surprised if that proved popular.  I'd be very
interested in Raph's commentary on the effects of the various external
chat programs used with UOL.

> Or, even more
> likely, move to another mud.

<bow>

--
J C Lawrence                               Internet: claw at null.net
                                           Internet: coder at ibm.net
----------(*)                        Internet: jc.lawrence at sun.com
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...