[MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad <olag@ifi.uio.no>]

Marian Griffith <gryphon at iaehv.nl> wrote:
>On Mon 22 Dec, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:
>> Mike Sellers <mike at online-alchemy.com> wrote:
>> >At 08:54 PM 12/21/97 PST8PDT, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:

>> The main thing is, being logged is unpleasant.  If people monitor you,
>> it means they don't trust you, that they are going to use that
>> information to your disadvantage. That isn't freedom.  Freedom is what
>> MUDs are about?
>
>Hardly.  Muds are a social game.  This implies social rules and some
>control of whether those rules are obeyed or not. How much rules and
>how much control is up to the individual game administrator.  And of
>course the fact there is some control is part of those social rules,
>so players have a right to be told about it.  They should not demand
>them to be absent though.

I disagree.  You will have social norms, society imposed norms, but
you may have multiple societies in a well-working mud.  MUDs may be
games, but first and foremost they constitute communication platforms.
(MUD designers hide from the legal responsibilty of user provided
content by calling them "communication systems".  Then they claim the
need for exessive logging.  Beats me.)

The fact that they are communication systems make them sensitive and a
subject for special attention, especially from a professional software
designers POV. A "right" to be informed about supervision?  Who is
going to enforce the right?  Who can enforce the right?  Only the
system itself.  Those who design the systems have a responsibility.

>> A robust systems should protect the users from the admins!!! I'm
>> serious!
>
>I'm convinced you're serious. I do not agree however. Admins are part
>of the game and thus are bound by the same social rules.

Social rules might work if you can be spotted.

>They've been
>granted some special powers for specific tasks. Any other use is just
>abuse,  and should be treated in the same way  as any player breaking
>the rules is treated.

Actually, they haven't been granted anything.  They have just given
themselves the power.  I don't see how you can throw out the owner of
the system?

>And if you have a really sick player then the admin should not warn him
>that he is being logged.  By that time he may have done too much damage
>already.

I disagree, only because this again violates the principle about
knowing in advance what happens with your own information.  If users
are not notified about when logging is taking place, then there is no
mechanisms to limit the usage of logging.  In principle you will end
up with logging as a first resort.  I hope I have made it clear that
this is a position which I find difficult to defend from a moral
(philosophical) POV.

Marian mentions some examples of harassments:

>Repeatedly linkspamming the victim (by dropping hundreds of breads in a
>room during a fight). =20

Design flaw, not really harassment.

>Healing the monsters the victim was fighting.

But this is a great strategy, not harassment???

>To spread a disease wherever the victim was going until people began
>to avoid him.

Design flaw.

>Gossiping about the victim and trying to cause arguments be-
>tween the victim's friends. =20

Social interaction, should not be an admin issue.

>Spreading logs of private conversation  of the victim. =20

Where did he get the logs? A possible design flaw.

>Making false complaints to the imms about the victim.

This is worse, and a good reason to start warned logging.  Of course,
I don't think a good admin would take action against a user based on
hersay.

>Real life stalking. And attempted extorsion of certain favours.

Dunno what you refer to here, but if it happens outside the system,
then it should be of no concern from an admin POV.

>> Note that I am not talking about systems targeting 7-12 years old
>> kids, I'm talking about systems targeting 13+.
>
>In my brief experience age does not seem to make much difference with
>how immature some people can behave.

It matters for how responsible the (adult) admins are for the players'
mental health. (Especially sexual harassment, requests for sexual
favors etc.)

Ola.