Mixture

[claw at null.net]

On 23/03/97 at 10:15 PM, Adam Wiggins <nightfall at inficad.com> said:

>Hmm, this also brings up the issue of number-hiding.  Good or bad,
>and if so, how to implement it?  I realize most of the folks on this
>list come from an LP background; my experience with LPs has been that
>they show you all the numbers right up front, at least those that
>have stats and skills as a major part of gameplay.  I cut my teeth on
>Diku, however, (please, restrain from booing and hissing) where
>almost all numbers are totaly hidden. 

I think you'll find our spread is a bit broader than that.  I come
from the old-style games, Shades, Aber, MUD1/MUD2 etc, which reported
numbers, but those numbers actually bore very little relation to
anything but as loose comparisons:

  Oh, I'm a level 9 and he's a level 15 == He can probably beat me
easily.

But my server style preference is for the MOO/ColdX end.

I also like levelless numberless classless goal-oriented systems (and
no, I'm not convinced that skill trees are the one true solution).

FWIW this numberless area was under fairly hot discussion on Wout's
list.  I'll see if I can't dig up a few key threads later.

>Usually you don't find out your
>actual stats (numerically, that is) until high level, and in some
>cases never.  

I see no reason that the system should ever report stats for things
like dexterity, strength and such (aside: I can see no possible excuse
for an intelligence stat.).

>Of course, it's not really too necessary, because it
>quickly becomes obvious what your stats are. "Let's see, I can wield
>pretty heavy weapons without difficulty, so I must be pretty strong,
>and I've gotten good hitpoint gains, so I must have a good con. 
>Hmmm, my skills are learning rather slowly, though, I must not be too
>smart."  Etc.  

*That* is exactly the sort of play I expect.  "Oh, my magical spells
are succeeding more often == I must be getting better at magic.".  I
don't want the system to come back and report some sort of meaningful
comparitive value or phrase to the user at any point.

If you really feel that you have to provide your players with some
sort of comparison value, make it entirely relative.  Say for
strength, make the reported strength a rough approximation to a
fraction of the strongest character your character has seen in the
last XXX time, or if he's stronger than all those, just report a "very
strong" equivalent.  Ergo, the values are compleatly and utterly
meaningless, but the users are still satisfied tht they have something
with which to measure their own advancement.

Note: You'll have to add a median function to the above, or a single
glimpse of a super-strong character will lead to scenes such as:

  > l
  Bubba is here
  > score bubba strength
  Bubba looks about two thirds as strong as you.
  > score strength
  You are pretty strong now, stronger than most you've seen.
  Boffo enters.
  > score boffo strength
  Boffo is amazingly strong.
  > score strength
  You are very weak.

> Skills are the same, only they are almost uniformly
>_never_ displayed as a numeric value, rather "long blades: very poor"
>or "disarm traps: superb".  The skill thing is nice, too, because a
>mage's skill in bludegons as 'superb' is roughly equivilent to a
>warrior's skill with bludegons at 'fair', due to the nature of the
>classes.  

cf Legend's skill document.  Its well worth a very detailed read. 
They are one of the few to build a hierarchial skill system that is
both internally self-consistant, and acts as the fundament for all
player actions.  Its been posted here before.  I'll repost if
requested.

What I don't like about the above BTW is that the reported values are
absolute (and I suspect advancement is linear).  This means that a
"superb" rating to one player has exactly the same meaning as superb
to another.  Not Good.  It makes for a single universal scale on which
all players can place themselves, and removes all mystery as to
exaclty what your status is.

>This would actually all work pretty well, except for a nasty little
>thing called breakpoints.  

As you described, I use formulas thru-out.  They're more expensive,
but they are also more responsive and tunable.

>So what sorts of things are you guys doing for character creation and
>the handling of numerical abilities for rating varies attributes of
>characters, weapons, and so on?

For me all characters are created as clones.  It is then up to them to
obtain a body (I'm still debating wether I should given them a body by
default).  Raw characters (newly created) have a lot of potential, but
no direction.  Actual play of the character will develop the skills
and produce a (hopefully unique) individual in the MUD world.  The
skill tree is largely patterened on Legend's.

As far as weapon based combat is concerned (which I'm hoping to
massively de-emphasise in favour of less physical assaults (magic,
mana, body stealing, will power battles, etc) my route runs as so.

Each weapon requires certain base skills to operate.  Each
blow/defense action with a weapon also requires specific skill sets. 
However, these requirements are not restrictive -- anything can be
attempted by any player with any (non-)weapon.  What the skill sets,
and their proportionate value in that character, do is to change the
probability of the success of the blow, along with the probability of
its failure resulting in its actually being an attack on yourself
(shoot self in foot, swing sword and lop own arm off, cast fireball
spell and have it hit self, etc) or some other non-target in the area
(swing sword at Bubba, miss, and hit Boffo).

The amalgamated value for the blow is then matched with a similar
value for the attacker/defender, the two are bounced off each other
several times (see previous discussion of Combat Scripting and
interactive combat) until a resolution is met, the final blows and
their results are calculated, and its done.

All the calculations above are handled by formulae, typically curves
asymptotic to a 100% value.  As for reporting comparitive skills to
the user, that's just up to him to observe for himself.

--
J C Lawrence                               Internet: claw at null.net
----------(*)                              Internet: coder at ibm.net
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...