[MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)

[Derrick Jones]

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:

> On Sun 02 Nov, Sauron wrote:
> 
> Marian Griffith wrote
> > > I don't know about coding things but it can't be so hard to have a
> > > realistic way to arrest people. It happens all the time of course?
> > > You just need some way for your police to restrain people. Things
> > > like shackles and handcuffs?
> > coding is how you program the game to do whatever you want to do. i
> > really think it would be very inefficient to have to have a guard hold
> > and restrain a person, apply handcuffs and take them away.
> Why? Police seems to do it daily without problems.

Well, I was hoping for a better success rate than the police...
But as to the difficulty in coding restraining code, done right
non-leathal combat is harder to code than swordplay.  Plus you have to
work in options for leathal/nonleathal combat combinations.  Not as
trivial as it first seems.

> > > >   Mages present an especially problimatic scenario, as
> > > > they have the option of teleporting beyond the reach of the law...
> 
> > > Why? If the police employs mages they have the same option. Or they can
> > > prevent the gate from opening, or from closing behind the mage. There's
> > > any number of things you can do to solve this I would think?
> 
> > but then you're being hypocritical and really endangering the suspension
> > of disbelief. it becomes unreal (in the sense that realism is unto the
> > game itself) because you've outlawed mages in a city, but here you are
> > using other mages to keep them out.
> 
> Hypocritical? I can't quite remember how this dicussion started but
> I do not believe it included outlawing magic in the city.  Somebody
> just complained  that it was easy to control ordinary fighters that
> entered the city by forcing them to abandon their weapons, but that
> this obviously  would not work for mages.  Or at least the original
> idea was that it would be impossible to do ICly.

Started out with trying to create a 'safe haven' in an otherwise dangerous
world without suspending the feel of the outside world.

> > > > More realistically, just force _characters_ to remain in-game even while
> > > > the players are away...It becomes difficult to balance on a PK mud, but
> > > > managible if you allow players to create scripts and defences to use in
> > > > place of human input.
> 
> > > That's a possibility also even though it would make it impossible for
> > > somebody like me to play your game.
> 
> > why? seriously you either place your character in a "safe room" where
> > they cant be attacked (if the game allows such rooms) or you leave your
> > connection active (their are numerous programs out there that will
> > reconnect for you if you get dumped) and it is not very hard to program
> > a simple script that will run when attacked or respond by saying run a
> > room, hide, when X enters, attack X, run, etc.
> 
> You're joking right? I can't afford to leave my computer connected all
> day even if I wanted to. And no, things like those automatic reactions
> may be simple for you but I wouldn't know how to begin. Not to mention
> that I have no interest in finding out because I do not enjoy the type
> of game it implies.

There's a world of difference between in-game and on-line.  Those
overly-complicated reactions are as simple as selecting items off a menu
within the game.  Everything else is handled by the game mechanics.
As for the type of game it implies, it merely implies a game where PCs and
NPCs don't simply pop into and out of existance without explaination.  Or
do you think that a total discontinuity of reality within the game world
is a Good Thing?

> > > Of course nothing would prevent the patrol guards to send for a mage or
> > > two to disable your magical defenses.  If the city allows such defenses
> > > in town in the first place. Or the mage would place a magical dome over
> > > your house that prevents you from leaving?

1. The patrol guards would have to know where to send the mage.
2. There has to be a mage of sufficient power available.
3. Do you suggest that I allow players the ability to encapsulate other
players within their homes, or that the laws of magic operate diferently
for NPC an PC mages which are in games terms completely identical?
4. What good would having parimeter defences around your home if they can
be easily disabled?  Or are you again assuming that the NPCs operate in a
separate universe with different game (world) mechanics from PCs?
5.  By saying that the mage leaves town to go to his/her house, I am
insinuating that said house is outside town, therefore not subject to
town common-law, and therefore the question of the legality of home
security systems within the town becomes moot.

> > > > 2.)  If player manages to get their character to its house, it has to
> > > > be designed to prevent determined PC's from entering (protect PC's from
> > > > afk PK), so a NPC won't fair all that much better.
> > > Just hire a better mage?
> The question was that if mages could
> make themselves invulnerable to attacks from ordinary fighters, how
> could to be brought to justice. This already implies that magic can
> be practiced in that particular town and it also suggest that there
> could be a mage or two employed by the town,  to protect it against
> other mages. In any remotely realistic setting mages too need a job
> to earn their food, house and clothing.

No, the question was, if characters are protected from PCs and NPCs alike
within their homes (an assumed requirement granted, but I feel its a
neccessary assumption the players will know that in most likelyhood their
characters won't be dead the next time they go to log on.), then there is
either the problem of preventing the PC criminal from reaching the safety
of home, or the conclusion that some god-like power has to be given to the
guards that they can circumvent otherwise fairly impregnible defences.

> *shrug* not to me, but I admit not being particularly logical.
> Marian
No, not illogical (ack a triple negative), just a different view of what
game mechanics should be absolute.

Gunther