[MUD-Dev] Re: Less numbers, more roleplaying.

[Richard Woolcock]

Derrick Jones wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > On Sun 23 Nov, Derrick Jones wrote:
> > > On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Marian Griffith wrote:
> > > > On Sat 15 Nov, coder at ibm.net wrote:
> > > > > On 09/11/97 at 01:46 PM, Adam Wiggins <nightfall at user2.inficad.com> said:
> > > > > Points I would rate as valuable upon introduction to a game:
> > > > >   -- Awareness that I will be able to do interesting "neat" things in the
> > > > > game.
> > > If you take this into concideration, its boggles the mind that most new
> > > players first steps in a new mud generally follow the same path.
> > > <begin vast generalization\>
> > > ==First stop is a linear, poorly documented creation process.
> > > This is compounded by the fact that 80% of the decisions made at
> > > creation-time are made arbitrarily because new players generally have no
> > > basis on which to make these choices, as the 'help' files for the creation
> > > process are either useless or non-existant.
> >
> > Many of the better muds have at least a rudimentary information about
> > the various choices involved.  Of course  they usually manage to miss
> > the point so the poor first time player is left making all the mista-
> > kes again. But this problem decreases as the player grows more exper-
> > ienced in playing muds.
> Here the help-file author has to walk a thin line.  You want to give
> players plenty of _meaningful_ information about a selection, but you
> don't want to detail the code mechanics behind these choices.  Simple,
> detailed, and cross-referenced descriptions need to be written to target
> players of the lowest common denominator of your target audience.  Most
> help files I've seen generally assume a familiarity with paper rpgs, which
> many new players may not have.  Perhaps the mud's web-page would be better
> suited for character creation?  This would make help files a bit easier to
> navigate, and character generation is where they're leaned on the most.

This would be a good idea, but it should be an option not a replacement - 
at university, I didn't have web access unless I used the xterms (which I 
wasn't allowed to use for anything to do with "those silly games").  Instead 
I had to stick with dumb terminals and the occasional PC.

> > > ==Finally, You're dumped into the middle of what is supposed to be your
> > > hometown, yet you recognize no one, and you know where nothing is.  You're
> > > given a few freebees, wished good luck, then sent on your way, typically
> > > without the aid of decent on-line help.
> > > </end rampant generalization>
> > This is indeed  extremely aggravating.  And things do not get better no
> > matter how many muds you have played. I guess this is why so many play-
> > ers insist on keeping midgard as the hometown.  It may be unthematical,
> > even boring, but at least it is familiar.
> 
> The devil you know vs the devil you don't.

The number of players you'll gain from having midgaard, you'll lose for the
same reason.  A well-laid out city (with a text map available - perhaps a
graphical one on the web page) would be a good solution though.  The only 
times I hated muds without midgaard was when the main cities were so 
complicated I could never find my way out of them.

> > > > >   -- Awareness that there is more to the game than is
> > > > > immediately obvious.
> >
> > > Some ideas on getting more information to newbies:
> > > Have a decent 'help' command.  This should go without saying, but help
> > > files are typically an afterthought.  "I don't want to write help files
> > > yet, the design may change..." typically results from "Man help files sure
> > > are boring to write."
> >
> > Not to mention that those help files are boring to read also! Most of
> > the time they are rather technical and completely out of character to
> > say the least.  They immediately show that nobody cares about writing
> > them and that nobody ought to care about reading them.
> 
> One problem I forsee in writing my own help files is that I don't think
> about _how_ to do things anymore when I mud, and putting a second-nature
> activities into words is difficult.  This problem compounds when you write
> your own code, as willing to do something automatically results in the
> proper command every time.  I can't document things _I_ would want to see
> in the help files, because how often does the programmer need to read the
> help files on his own program?

How true, and this is a problem I have also encountered.  People will ask me
what commands do what, and I think "thats obvious!"...but of course, its not.

> I'll probably sit my girlfriend down at the computer (she's only nominally
> computer literate, can run most programs on windows, but no exposure to
> command-line interpreters) and put any information she needs to play the
> game in the files.

Heh yes this is a good idea.  I've realised I am going to have to make my
new character generation system easier to use, since I asked a friend who
(1) is an extremely good coder, (2) has several years implementor experience,
and (3) is familiar with the WoD rpg's (which my char gen/mud is based on) to
have a look at my new code.  He couldn't work out how to create a character,
and in the end I had to log on to his mud and guide him through it.  I 
consider this to be really bad, as I thought the character generation system 
was pretty easy to follow.

> > > Give newbies a map of their hometown, and encourage them to print it out.
> > > This can be justified by the fact that the character should know his/her
> > > way around.  Players will get a quicker sense of where they are if they
> > > have a hard copy map of the starting town, and will feel more like they
> > > belong there.
> >
> > Better still: Give new players an immediate -knowledge- of their home-
> > town. So they should be able to type 'go to the baker' and walk their.
> > >From anywhere in town. Why force players to work out where they are on
> > a map and translate that in a series of moves like n-n-e-n-w-s to find
> > the baker? Maybe other people are better at reading maps than I am but
> > I find it difficult and confusing (I keep up making mistakes with east
> > and west :(
> 
> I walked off more cliffs this way.  Whoever put the 'e' and the 'w' next
> to each other should be flogged. Yes, implicit knowledge of the town would
> be great, and probably wouldn't take to much to code.  Anyways, a map
> would still help the situation so that the player knows that there is a
> bakery in town.

*nod*

> > > Provide an IC way to research.  I'm thinking of designing a 'library'
> > > where newbies can learn about the mudworld.
> > > Players will be encouraged to write their own 'books', which then can
> > > be read by players logging on. This will give more established players
> > > (a chance) to create more of a sense of permanence while letting the
> > > new players get a feel for just how involved the 'world' you have
> > > created has become.
> > Yes! This is perfect. Why has nobody thought of this before?
> 
> <Bow>.  But I'm sure its not 100% new.  Not all that much is these days.

Hmmm well I coded books, but they were only used for spells.  You write spells
on the pages (with a pen), then insert the pages into the book, flick through
the book until you find the spell you want, and then cast it.  The spells
are written in a funny sort of semi-code format, and you can get some quite
entertaining results (including the ability to 'chain' spells, but having a
spell automatically cast the spell on the next page, with optional parameters).

> > > Their will also be a series of how-to books, history books, and
> > > information geared to getting players motivated to undertake various
> > > quests.
> >
> > Not to mention histories. Great deeds of past heroes. How Boffo attacked
> > and defeated at least 15 vicious trolls at the same time.  How Biffy and
> > Buffo ventured into the lair of the green dragon to bring Boffo's corpse
> > back to town so she could be properly buried (and rebirthed). Or the at-
> > tack by the Drow hordes that almost overcame the cities defenses.
> 
> Nodnod the more books in the library the better.  One question I'll put to
> the list, though.  How much control (censorship) should the admin have
> over the contents of player-written books?  One approach would be have a
> staff member act as publisher, rejecting poorly-written works, and perhaps
> assigning a royalty to really well-written works.  The result of leaving
> the shelves unmonitored would be that the library would quickly degrade
> into a bulliten-board style arena, with most 'books' being nonsensical
> jibberish ("Metallica Rules!!!" x 100).

I would suggest having some sort of censorship, otherwise people really will
write all sorts of rubbish.

> > Maybe even allow players to put it into songs  and have minstrels in the
> > various castles sing of the heroic deeds of the players :)
> 
> Not sure how I would swing this.  The main stumbling block would be to
> transfer the musical quality to players.  "The Minstrel sings 'A man
> strode bravely through the woods, a great broadsword in his arms.'." just
> doesn't do a ballad justice.

The Mistrel sings "Joe's powerful slash ***OBLITERATED*** the goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe's powerful slash ***OBLITERATED*** the goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe missed the goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "The goblin dodged Joe's blow!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe's powerful slash ***OBLITERATED*** the goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe's powerful slash ***OBLITERATED*** the goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "The goblin was DEAD!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe got a small sword from the corpse of a goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe got an iron shield from the corpse of a goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe got a pile of gold from the corpse of a goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe got steaming turds of Joe from the corpse of a goblin!"
The Mistrel sings "Joe sacrificed the corpse of the goblin to GOD!"

I'm sure the novalty would soon wear off.  However I do think mistrel's
would be a nice touch (for some reason I keep thinking of Robin's Minstrels
in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail).  Perhaps you could store the
most powerful mob that player killed (assuming the mob was over a certain
level), along with a couple of details - and make the rest up.  After all,
Mistrel's of 'old days' did just that.  Thus when you barely escaped with
your life after defeating a troll and looting his lair, you might hear (a 
couple of days later) a mistrel singing about how you butched a dozen of 
the beasts while underarmed, then rescued a fair maiden from their lair...

> > > > This concept would compliment an
> > > algerbra-based magic system nicely (IMHO), as mages would have a means of
> > > sharing/selling the tricks of their trade.  A library is also an ideal
> > > place to store world-maps (that is if you don't have gas stations) giving
> > > new characters a feel for the size of your world.
> >
> > And of course things like a bestiary of those haunted or holy places so
> > the adventurer might enter forewarned.
> 
> One thing I should meantion, not all information found in the library is
> complete or even accurate, especially to area, mobile, or quest-specific
> data.  Maybe just a few dire warnings about dangerous places, as finding
> out who (or what) lives in the deep forest to the north of Castle
> Blackmesh is much more rewarding when this knowlege is the result of some
> face-to-face encounter.

It would also take the fun out of the game if players could look up EVERY
detail about the place they wanted to explore.

> > > Provide interactive objects/mobiles (c.f. the Newbie Sword discussion
> > > here) that give players little helpful hints as to how to survive and
> > > prosper in the gameworld.
> > The best way may be to provide new players with other new players and
> > let them work together?
> Not sure on this one.  I'd be afraid of the blind leading the blind.
> Perhaps some passive guidance and an occasional warning (somehow) given to
> the group would make sure they actually pick up on the game more quickly.

The real problem is the assumption that new players will come on at the same
time.  Most often, you'll get a slow but steady trickle of new players.

> > > > I would like to add the following to this little list:
> > > > >   -- New players can immediately play the game.  They should not be
> > > > restricted to a silly training area. Experience should give players
> > > > the ability to affect the game.  Lack of experience should not keep
> > > > them from playing it.
> > > The keyword here to me is 'silly'.  The mudworld on my mud is a very
> > > dangerous place.  The first and foremost 'goal' of the game will be to
> > > survive, and thriving will be but a byproduct of surviving greater and
> > > greater dangers.
> > Yes, but this must be offsetted against the problem that new players do
> > not know what area is safe and how to estimate dangers on a mud. If you
> > restrict them to one or two 'safe' areas  you severely limit their par-
> > ticipation of the game.  I feel strongly that everybody should look for
> > ways to allow  even very fresh characters  to explore more of the world
> > without being slaughtered as soon as they set foot outside town.
> 
> Yes.  Overall size of the mudworld is critical.  If you're limited to only
> a handful of small areas, then all level of players will suffer.  Towns
> make some of the best areas if they're done well, as the lowly newbie can
> undertake a few small adventures (teach the town bully a lesson), and even
> the most powerful players can still find challenges here (Take out the
> Captain of the town guard.)  I guess the defining point for a greater
> range of access to an area is the disposition of its inhabitants.  Newbies
> are much safer next to the townguard, as apposed to the orc, even though
> the townguard is twice as strong.  Plus the townguard is more of a
> challenge for the experienced player than the orc.
> 
> Perhaps periodic wagon trains travelling from haven to haven would
> even expand their horizons more.  Travel would be relatively safe, as the
> wagons would be protected by mercenaries (Questing mid-level players?).

Hmm I don't really have this problem, because my starting players can be
almost as tough as a long-term player (but nowhere near as flexible).  The
real difference comes when you become a vampire/whatever, at which point
you 'step outside' of the regular 'level' of the mud.  Of course as the
mud is not (read: not very) combat based, this isn't really a problem.

> > > I've found that if you throw inexperienced players into
> > > highly dangerous situations, the survival rate is non-existant.  New
> > > players still play the game, but are exposed to much smaller (in an
> > > absolute scale, not compared with the character's abilities) dangers.
> >
> > Maybe there is a way to reduce the dangers for new characters.  How about
> > having the chance of being attacked be proportional to the amount of gold
> > and equipment a character carries, as well as to the level?  It would not
> > save them from the truly dangerous areas,  but it would allow them to spy
> > out areas they could not reasonably expect to survive a fight.
> 
> Hrm...The gold/equipment/level argument applies already to player vs
> player combat, so it would be reasonable to apply the same logic to
> intelligent NPC actions.  Wouldn't apply to truely evil creatures though,
> or those creature who attack only for food.  Undead creatures hate
> everything living, and will attack regardless of victem's stregnth
> (Although an intelligent vampire might choose no to attack Buffy the
> Vampire Slayer, unless Buffy's already hurt and the vampire has a chance

Hmmm not the same as my vampires then ;)

> of winning.).  A T-Rex just sees 100-200 pound of fresh USDA grade A
> human.

So called 'Intelligent' mobs should go for the weakest opponent.

> > Or perhaps give low level players with poor equipment a better ability to
> > sneak around areas. That way they not only can enter those areas but they
> > can also be of use to high level parties as scouts and guards against any
> > wandering nasty.
> 
> I dunno if I buy this too insignificant to notice idea.  Most mud-nasties
> just see the race of the character and dinner bells go off.  If anything a
> newbie would attract more attention to himself, as they aren't quite as
> skilled at acting inconspicuous.
> 
> > > I wouldn't think twice about having an army of giants storm a town of
> > > seasoned players, but to a newbie, such a raid would be an impossible
> > > challenge without some devine rescue.  Now this rescue will typically
> > > end in the player being dumped in some 'newbie zone' (but I would _never_
> > > call it that!!!) during the duration of the giants' raids.
> >
> > Most towns have something like a safe room in the temple. That frequently
> > acts as refuge to low level players during invasion quests. At least this
> > was so on the muds I have played?
> 
> Dunno, the temple is probably the first place to get sacked when the town
> gets invaded.

Perhaps it is protected by Divine power?  Maybe the swordsmans guild would
be the best place to hide.  Regardless, I wouldn't enjoy logging on to a new
mud, only to find I couldn't leave the temple for an hour because the town
was under attack.

> > > There are many times when newbies need to be sequestered frmo the 'real'
> > > game, simply to prevent them from being slaughtered, and there are many
> > > places none but the most seasoned players dare tread.
> >
> > I would not dream to claim otherwise.  But locking players into one or two
> > areas that are safe somehow feels wrong to me. And it is this way not only
> > for the low level players, it is basically true for all levels. Because at
> > any level there are only a couple of areas  that give worthwile experience
> > points at moderate risk. A level 25 player could still go to the mudschool
> > and kill rabbits...
> 
> Here again its simply the overall size of the mudworld and its population.
> If you wanted all areas to appeal to all groups, you'd ether have to put
> 1000 mobiles in each area(to leave enough to form a reasonable challenge
> at any level) or have players run from area to area picking off one or two
> creatures in each.

This is perhaps one of the major flaws with levels in a combat-based mud.
Perhaps more muds should start advertising '10 levels' rather than '1000 
levels' - at least you'd know you had a good chance of having plenty of
places you could explore.

> > > The trick is to keep the new players thinking that they are in fact
> > > playing the real game, and constantly surprise them as their horizons
> > > expand.  If the players feel like they are being herded, they will be
> > > turned off, so give the new players _something_ to do, but don't
> > > overload them too quickly.
> >
> > I totally agree,  but I still belief you should control the risk they
> > take rather than control their access to the game. At least as far as
> > most of the gameworld is concerned.
> >
> Well, the risk involved in being in a dangerous place stems from being
> there, as the inhabitants of that place will seek _you_ out, and not just
> stand there and wait for slaughter.  Yes, a small area at any level of
> play sucks, but expanding the gameworld to include a large number of safe
> areas (and a disproportionately larger still number of dangerous areas)
> will (IMHO) create a much more interesting gameworld.

I dislike the whole concept of 'safe' areas... Surely there must be some
better alternative?  Admittedly, preventing undead from entering the
Temple of Light would be quite reasonable, but to simply have an area in
which people cannot fight just doesn't seem quite right.

KaVir.