[MUD-Dev] Marian's Tailor Problem

[Brandon Cline]

Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Koster, Raph wrote:
> > [...] The problem is that it is couched right now in terms
> > of a game that ALSO supports combat.
> > [...]
> > In a setting which supports violence via a number of direct and indirect
> > means, how do you let the non-violent players play without being
> > impinged upon by violence? And harder, how do you do it without human
> > intervention?
>
> The real problem in the setup, is the lack of what we understand by
> society and values. For tailors to exist, it requires a social
> context. The way many combat-oriented games are set up, the social
> context is missing for this activity. In reality such games does not
> as much mirror mideval times, as much as a caveman free-for-all fight.
>
> If society does value life and lifestyle enough, and decides to protect
> it, as well as the people that help hold up the society wich they value,
> (such as tailors,farmers etc). In such a setup the tailors are not
> required to take up the profession of warrior (maybe except in VERY
> extreme situations, like under a siege), and it is in the interrest of the
> community that they do their job, ans so makes society function, and does
> not waste time learning the finer techniques of handling a sword.
>
> Problem with most online mideval style games today is that 'everyone'
> wants to be the knight in shining armor, or the warlike magician, which in
> turn creates a social context where 80% of everyone is a person with a
> violent profession. Such a distribution naturally will reflect itself upon
> the social context of the game. The violent world that Marians tailor sees
> is simply a product of a world build by violence, not society.
>
> If you want the game to mirror a society, you would have to make the
> players face the real concequences of their actions. If the farmers are
> killed, they would have to pick up farming, or probably die of starvation.
> If the tailor is killed, they'll be walking around in rags in a few
> months, etc etc. Swordmanship would not be the most required skill, rather
> would hunting probably be a more practical approach to survival.
>

I agree that there are a number of changes to the typical medieval game
structure that would be needed in order to support Marian's Tailor, but
"forcing" the players to either do it themselves or protect the non-combat
players from harm doesn't seem like it'd be the best way to go about it.
A) Even if 50% of the players were all non-combat, all it would take is one
player or group of players that don't care if the town has no farmers.
B) Yes there are players that would enjoy being a farmer, tailor, blacksmith,
carpenter, etc, but getting enough of them in one area to make a town is a
whole nother problem.

I'm not totally sure (feel free to correct me Marian), but I think one of
Marian's problems with the current online games is that there is no way to
advance in the game without being involved in some type of combat...  I know
this is true of most muds/diku/circle/etc, not sure about M59, or UOL
though.  Then another concern, I guess, would be that even if you could
advance totally without combat, what would keep the combat type players from
seeing you as easy pickings...

> The big question is then: How do you do that without the game becoming
> tedious and boring?

This is always a question, even with combat oriented games. :>

Some of the design goals I see relevant to making a world that supports this
kinda of activity are:

  All advancement is done through skills, social standing, and economy hence
allowing but not "forcing" advancement with or without combat.

  While either making it easy to escape or defend yourself, at the same time
making it hard to determine someone elses stregth.

  Death is either perminant (possibly hard to achieve) or very light in
effect (no actual death at all).


Would love to see some comments on this from Marian and Dr. Cat, because
while it is a goal of mine to support this type of world/environment,
I haven't spent as much time playing non-combat games...



- Brandon Cline