[MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)

[Mike Sellers]

At 08:57 AM 12/22/97 PST8PDT, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:
>Mike Sellers <mike at online-alchemy.com> wrote:
>>At 08:54 PM 12/21/97 PST8PDT, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:
>>Hang on there!  You're talking about a whole bunch of system-specific
>>issues with one person's proposed design.  I can't speak to someone else's
>>design or design goals.  All I said was that I don't see anything fascist
>>about logging all in-system communications, particulary if you tell people
>>you're going to do so up front, and that all communications will be kept
>>confidential.  Of course if you *don't* follow these self-restrictions you
>>could buy all kinds of trouble. =20
>
>Well, I realize that the term "fascist" isn't the proper term, I used
>it because I don't know the proper english term. I still think it
>describes pretty well what this scheme easily can turn into.

Sorry, didn't mean to pick on specific language issues.  I think I
understand what you mean about intrusive, overbearing, "Big Brother"
situations.  Still, I don't think this necessarily applies to logging
communications on a MUD. =20

I would add too that I support the use of "private areas" like individual
homes, etc., where no logging would be done.  At the same time, no support
would be given for user-logs made supporting accusations of harassment or
other actions taking place in such private areas.  Private areas are just
that: private. =20

>The main thing is, being logged is unpleasant.  If people monitor you,
>it means they don't trust you, that they are going to use that
>information to your disadvantage. That isn't freedom.  Freedom is what
>MUDs are about?

Last I checked, MUDs were about entertainment. =20

I disagree with your assumptions about what it means when your
communications are logged.  When you go into a bank and are put on video,
is it because the bank doesn't trust you, and that they'll use that
information to your disadvantage?  Yes -- but *only* if you do something
that is unlawful or hurts others.  In the same way, logging all
communications (outside of designated private areas) does not mean any
individual has anything to be concerned about *unless* they are accused of
doing something hurtful to someone else.  If they are falsely accused, no
problem -- the log helps them out, and no suspicion lingers as it might
otherwise.  If they are rightly accused, then we have the ability to better
guage our response given what was *actually* said or done, not what someone
emotionally remembers was said or done. =20

> ...You could
>make it a little better by logging log access.  It IS extremely
>tempting to check the logs of annoying users who say a lot of funny
>weird things...

This is a good point, and goes to what you were saying about being
protected from the admins.  I agree that the players should feel secure in
not being harassed *by* the admins.  Logging log access goes a long way
toward preventing that kind of power trips by the admins (a real and
present problem in *every* MUD that I've seen). =20

>>As an aside, I heard recently that UO has now sold over 90,000 copies to
>>end-users.  If true, and if their churn is not incredibly high, this is a
>>good sign for our section of the industry -- if not for the mental health
>>of their support people. =20
>
>The problem with UO as an example case is that it is not selling on
>it's own merits...  I wonder how the fact that it is an "extention" of
>a singleplayer game affects user behaviour? =20

I think it's safe to say that the majority of UO players have never played
another Ultima game.  (Raph, any comment here?)

>I would think that a lot
>of the players would try to play UO-Online as if it was a single
>player game.  I guess you could say the same thing about Meridian59,
>as it use the same type of graphic engine often seen in single player
>kill-everything-you-see type of games.

No, this is definitely not the case.  Only a minority of people treated M59
as a single player game, and most of those people quickly realized their
mistake.  You just can't play a game like M59 or UO as a single player game
and have much of a good time. =20

>>No, I don't think so, at least not in a commercial situation.  Say what=
 you
>>like about me, about my game, my employees, my friends, whatever -- no
>>problem (people have never been shy about doing any of these things from
>>what I've seen :) ).
>
>Well, in Meridian59 a player told me to use another chat system for
>talking about some less favorable admin issues.

That's bogus -- but people say all kinds of paranoid things.  M59 has no
logging or snooping. =20

> ...
>>However: we're talking about non-governmental logging of conversations
>>taking place within private, for-profit game-areas here.
>
>The problem is, the difference isn't as clear. The MUD administration
>is a government.  If you don't like how we handle things, move to a
>different state :-). =20

But a MUD can't put *you* in jail, curtail your freedoms, deny you housing,
etc.  If you don't like the way the MUD is run, you *can* move to another
one quite easily.  Logging out of a MUD is hardly the same as checking out
of this (the physical) world. =20

If the difference between a MUD and an actual, physical world government
(and the relative powers of each) isn't clear to you... I think you have
other problems. =20


Mike Sellers                     mike at online-alchemy.com
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