[MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad <olag@ifi.uio.no>]

Mike Sellers <mike at online-alchemy.com> wrote:
>At 08:57 AM 12/22/97 PST8PDT, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:
>Sorry, didn't mean to pick on specific language issues.  I think I
>understand what you mean about intrusive, overbearing, "Big Brother"
>situations.  Still, I don't think this necessarily applies to logging
>communications on a MUD. =20

It doesn't apply if you don't log or monitor etc.

>I would add too that I support the use of "private areas" like individual
>homes, etc., where no logging would be done.  At the same time, no support
>would be given for user-logs made supporting accusations of harassment or
>other actions taking place in such private areas.  Private areas are just
>that: private. =20

Well, the trouble is.  If I don't see anyone when I am in the woods,
then I think "this is a private area", let's masturbate...  If you get
the picture.

>>The main thing is, being logged is unpleasant.  If people monitor you,
>>it means they don't trust you, that they are going to use that
>>information to your disadvantage. That isn't freedom.  Freedom is what
>>MUDs are about?

>Last I checked, MUDs were about entertainment. =20

The only unique thing virtual worlds can provide is freedom to carve
your own society.  Entertainment, what is that?  Wasting time?

>I disagree with your assumptions about what it means when your
>communications are logged.  When you go into a bank and are put on video,
>is it because the bank doesn't trust you, and that they'll use that
>information to your disadvantage?  Yes -- but *only* if you do something
>that is unlawful or hurts others.  In the same way, logging all

You guys come up with all these silly scenarios.  How much time do you
spend in the bank? (My bank is a telephone by the way).  What is the
effect of a shotgun?  Messy, a lot more messy than someone typing some
symbols on a computer.  Anyway, you are aware that you are being
monitored, and you know that it won't last.  The main point is still,
computer systems are giving users some false idea that they are alone
and "safe".  (BTW I would feel pretty bad if the government implanted
some reporting device in my brain, or put cameras on each
streetcorner.)

>doing something hurtful to someone else.  If they are falsely accused, no
>problem -- the log helps them out, and no suspicion lingers as it might
>otherwise.  If they are rightly accused, then we have the ability to better

Guilty unless logged? That's pretty horrible.  Anyway. Think about
this.  Your MUD is research with human testobjects, do whatever you
want as long as it follows guidelines for such research.

>not being harassed *by* the admins.  Logging log access goes a long way
>toward preventing that kind of power trips by the admins (a real and
>present problem in *every* MUD that I've seen). =20

Well, it is the next best thing I guess... I still thing having the
user doing his own logging (actually, more like pressing a button,
logging happens in the server, or maybe, pushing the button makes the
logs available)

>>I would think that a lot
>>of the players would try to play UO-Online as if it was a single
>>player game.  I guess you could say the same thing about Meridian59,
>>as it use the same type of graphic engine often seen in single player
>>kill-everything-you-see type of games.

>mistake.  You just can't play a game like M59 or UO as a single player game
>and have much of a good time. =20

That's true, unless you are a hit-and-run player. Anway, what I
intended to say (but didn't :-) was that I would think that the
familiarity/resemblance would result in a different
chess-style/cafe-style player ratio.  Or to rephrase it, if one
designed in a new cosy way, removed the game-label, then maybe more
people would behave?  (Maybe most Alphaworld players are social, I
dunno).

>>>However: we're talking about non-governmental logging of conversations
>>>taking place within private, for-profit game-areas here.
>>
>>The problem is, the difference isn't as clear. The MUD administration
>>is a government.  If you don't like how we handle things, move to a
>>different state :-). =20
>
>But a MUD can't put *you* in jail, curtail your freedoms, deny you housing,
>etc.  If you don't like the way the MUD is run, you *can* move to another
>one quite easily.  Logging out of a MUD is hardly the same as checking out
>of this (the physical) world. =20

It isn't the same... yet.  Anyway, the trauma is RL, the feelings are
real.  Ruling over other people is ruling over other people.  If the
RL government were monitoring me but would guarantee to not put me in
jail etc, would I like it, would I approve? NO!

When will snooping and logging be wrong then?  When everything is done
through a virtual world?  Where are the limits?  Private communication
is real, not artificial braindead entertainment of no value?

>If the difference between a MUD and an actual, physical world government
>(and the relative powers of each) isn't clear to you... I think you have
>other problems. =20

Yeah, the trouble is that I am on a mailinglist with admins that are
designing systems to fit their own bill... I am concerned about the
individual, the user, good design, moral, philosphy etc.

Ola.