[MUD-Dev] Planes of existance

[Quzah]

From: Greg Munt <greg at uni-corn.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [MUD-Dev] Planes of existance


> > [Quzah]
> >
> > While talking of death and what to do with folk when they
> > expire, I thought of implementing planes of existance and
> > thought some of you folk may like to kick the idea around
> > a bit.
> 
> Don't do this without thinking for a while. The above implies that not
> having anywhere for dead players to 'go' is a problem. It's not. Dead is
> dead. Is dead, is dead. The end. (Don't even *think* about getting me
> started on how instantaneous reincarnation can kill a well thought-out
> world. This is a perfect example of the players wants' being the opposite of
> the mud's needs. I'm sure Mr Mihaly will correct my flawed logic, however...
> *grin*)

Actually I'm really partial to perm-death. Dead is dead.* I like that
sort of thing but who I was talking about didn't want to have that
sort of a death system so I tossed out this idea. I've played on a
prem-death game a long time ago and it was indeed much more "thrilling"
than yon-standard-mud. You have a lot more to think about when you are
fighting. "Oh damn, I'm X level and if I die this is going to take a
LONG time to get back to this power again!" It also makes pkill much
more satisfying... So anyway, the idea wasn't for my person al use
(at least as far as death goes).

> OTOH...
> 
> > I was thinking it would be fun to implement planes by use
> > of a plane_of_existance variable on everything.
> 
> I think you need to avoid thinking in terms of how to implement this thing.
> The first thing you need to do is to decide if your reason for wanting
> multiple existence planes is a Good Thing(tm).
> For example, 'because the players don't like having to start all over again
> when they die', 'it would be, like.. COOL, man' and 'it would be fun to
> code' are all BAD reasons. (No, this *isn't* flamebait. Really! *koff*)

Ah, but that's how I do everything :) I never (very rarely) play and I
find it a great deal more fun to actually implement things. Sure I know
it's not a reason to add things, but it is when all you care about is
seeing what your mobs can and can't do ;) The good thing is they can't
complain. The bad thing is they can't say how cool it is ;)

> So, what's a good reason? Simple: enrichment of the world. Of course, this
> will indirectly make the players ok with dying, it would make the mud 'cool'
> to some, and you bet it would be fun to code. Something with this much
> impact on your entire game universe needs to be thought about long and hard;
> that's a given. Add it for the cool factor, and your world (and hence, your
> game) will suffer. Add it because it will improve your world, offering more
> possibilities for player/world interaction, and you have made heaven
> (perhaps, literally).

My universe isn't fully created yet. When it is (one of the two I plan
on creating) it won't have magic. At least not my "goal". The other one
will just because it will be a different style of play and I have an
interesting idea or three for a magic system...

While it is selfish, I'll admit, I mainly code for the experience of
the whole thing and just because it would be fun to make something. I
really don't care much about how the player will be effected since at
the moment I don't have any :) It makes it really easy to do what I
feel like. The final product (the one the rest of the world gets to
see -- whenever that is) will have a decent mesh and feel to the whole
world/universe, but for now I just like to design nifty things and
see what I can get my mobs to do.

> So you want planes of existence? Rule number one: do they fit in with the
> laws of your world? If not, could the laws be modified (or added to), to
> allow their *seamless* (this is important - nothing spoils the immersion
> more than a new, obviously 'bolted-on' feature) introduction? If not, you
> need to think a bit more about whether you really want them. If you are
> still sure you can pull it off (well), consider what could have happened to

Actually it was a suggestion for another person's world, I leave all
of the headaches to them :)

> break or distort the laws of nature for your world. Magic (if your world's
> laws allow for its existence) could do it, but remember that laws of nature
> aren't broken every day - it would require great, *powerful* magic... Rare
> (important) magic, especially. And magic that is now lost forever. (Or until
> you need to change your world's laws again, anyway...) But magic cannot be
> allowed to become an easy fix when you have a problem that your laws of
> nature won't allow. If it does, you may as well bring in the Coolness
> Brothers: same result.

*re: dead is dead*
This is my only (in my magic based universe) subsitution to perm-death. I
plan on creating a rare magic which must be discovered/researched. The
essence of it will be lich-form. Upon the event of dying the spell is then
released and after a bit the player revives in lich form. -- Not those
pansy liches that litter muds. You know, the lich-fortress where every
three steps there are 5 more liches waiting to be smacked to pieces --
No, this is the good old fashion lich. The put the fear of god in to
them lich. The "Oh shit, it's a LICH!" lich. In my magic universe I plan
on having magic creatures be not the norm. In fact they will be rare and
damn deadly. It makes things much more fun in my opinion. Hell, how
many heroic epics of old had 5000 satyres, 800 griffon, a leigon of
dragons and such? I prefer the rare and deadly approach.

> You don't want to use magic? What else could cause such damage? How were
> these planes of existence found? Did we break in, or did they break out?
> Non-magical solutions are more likely to be more creative - and interesting.
> (If you didn't know already, this is a good thing.)

Nod. I actually have a few ideas (which I didn't mention to the other
folks I was talking to) about a seperate plane. Yes, I plan on having
(in my magic based world) a sealed plane where after woop-ass creature
spends enough time there (my world is/will be persistant over reboot)
and does the right thing they'll gain the power to break free of the
plane. God help the peons when this happens :)

> How does your world explain ghosts and ghouls and things that go bump in the
> night? Is one plane a source of evil (eg hell), and another of good (eg
> heaven)?
 
[snip]

> You need to be very careful in how you use magic. Avoid the coolness factor,
> and go for what your world laws feasibly permit. Can you explain it, or does
> it happen, just 'because'? The success or failure of a world begins and ends
> in its design.
> 
> Greg, who is forgetting how to lurk - this may, or may not, be a good
> thing...

Again, I was leaving the problems up to them. It's their mud after
all, I can't do everything for them ;) The 'coolness' factor is a
big factor for me. Though I suppose it isn't just a "wow, that would
be neat", it's more of a "hmm, that would be fun to implement". My
main purpose is to create an interesting world [x2] where the world
is persistant and every creature can attempt to do whatever it is
they want. I dislike being limited in what I can or can't do to X.

In the final product[s] the world will have it's reasons for doing
everything it does - though it may not be something the player
ever discovers.

I also hate the fact that yon-standard-mud treats it's creatures
different if they are player or non-player. For all pratical
purposes my creatures will be identical. The only difference will
be a player controling them versus a computer controling them.

Quzah.




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