[MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system

[John Vanderbeck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "rayzam" <rayzam at home.com>
To: <mud-dev at kanga.nu>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MUD-Dev] Moving away from the level based system


> Going off on a tangent to the point of the original post...
>

> That seems to assume that everyone starts off the same race, or a
> single race universe. Let alone no genetic differences, or
> differences prior to the age the player gains control of the
> character. Now, this isn't a bad thing per se. In my opinion,
> however, it limits backstory. Not only should the world have a good
> backstory, but so should the character. Or at least the possibility
> for it. That's a lot of what having a variety of races does, it
> gives a template background for the character: a merman has a
> different previous history than a rock troll or a wood elf. And even
> within a race, having attributes vary in starting characters aids in
> building a backstory.  This is more true if class and race affect
> starting stats.
>
> In the final analysis, having all characters start off the same,
> makes immersion into the game/world take longer for me.

I was actually speaking in a more abstract sense.  I completely agree
with things such as different races.  When I said all characters
should enter the game the same and then grow into thier playstyle, it
was more abstract.  Yes you would choose a race, yes you would choose
a gender.  But if you take two Selonians and drop them into the game,
they start the same.  They won't be the same in a month.

> Yes. This is a nice way of running things. It reminds me of
> Champions/Heroes with variable power pools..
>
> It's a good system. Stats then become the most important factor. But
> I'd like to hear more of the details/differences between it and
> level- and skill-based systems.
>
>   1) Okay, but how are the attributes increased? when do they
>   increase?  are they trained up with experience? Is there an
>   exponential cost scale: IQ of 9->10 is cheaper than 20->21?

There isn't any experience per se, not in the traditional sense.
Atrributes mainly raise by doing things wich would affect them.  If
you swing your sword alot, your Strength will go up.  There are also
certain turning points in a characters life where he or she will
receive character points to enchance stats.  These arne't levels but
milestones such as a caster finally becoming a priest, or a warrior
becoming a swordsman.

It works off of what I had originally called a "Discipline Tree", but
then EverQuest used the word so I will probably change it.  What it
means is that at the start of the game, everyone is the same.  Your
actions, and even inactions, move you slowly along this tree.  A
snippet of the tree:

BASE
 |_ Caster
          |_ Priest
                  |_ Priest of Whoever
                  |_ Priest of .... etc
          |_ Wizard
 |_ Warrior
          |_ Man-at-Arms
                  |_ Various Specializations
          |_ Wrestler
                  |_ Monk

Thats just a snippet.  Characters advance through this tree based on
actions they take, skills they use, spells they cast, and other events
in the world.  When they move from one branch to another, they get to
distribute new characters points, but there attributes still go up on
thier own by usage, regardless of the tree.  On the surface this looks
and sounds like a level based system with another name, but I assure
you it is not.  Its more of a classification system.  I wanted to
design something that, like I mentioned before, allows two characters
to essentially start the same and simply grow into the role they
naturally play.

>   2) In a level-based system, levels determine what skills or spells
>   you have access to. In this system, your stats do. So there is
>   still a level effect, however, the level number is just more
>   abstract or requires a formula. A caster able to handle lightning
>   storm is a higher level than one who can only cast up to lightning
>   bolt.

Yes.  I submit there will always be some sort of level effect, but
something more abstract like this is more flexible and doesn't seem as
artificial to me.  Your second statement about the lightning storm vs
lightning bolt however is not true.  Alot of this I didn't post, but
basically this more abstract system allows characters even of the same
type and general power range to develop differently.  For example, you
could have two casters of equal "power" and yet one may be able to
cast a much more "powerful" spell than another.  This comes about
fromt he fact that 1) Each and every spell is treated as a seperate
skill, and 2) Spells are grouped into "types" wich allows
specialization.  The better you are at a spell, meaning you use it
alot or practice, the less energy required touse that spell (to a
point).  Again its a rough overview, but the end effect is that you
may be much more "powerful" than I, but since I have devoted my life
to the spells of illusion, I can go invisible alot easier than you
could.

>   3) In a class-based system, classes determine your character's
>   development. A caster class will give access to the spells the
>   same way having those caster-based stats would.

Again, based on above, two casters will develop differently.  That and
the fact that my notebook has a good 250-300 UNIQUE spells in it,
means its highly unlikely any two casters would be identical.  I mean
unique spells, not same spells renamed, and not as EverQuest does
where you get the same spell at a higher level.  Your spells grow with
you.  There is no "Fireball" and "Super Fireball" being 2 spells.
There is just Fireball that grows in strength as you do.

>   It seems that this system isn't different in spirit with level,
>   class, or skill-based systems. It's slightly different in
>   mechanics:

I argue that anything will essentialy be the same, at least the same
effetc, but with different mechanics.  I'm trying to propose a more
flexible system.

>     a) spells don't need to be trained individually, you get access
>     to whatever you can cast based on your stats -> spell points.

Nope.  See above.

>     b) I'll assume the same is true for skills, and some
>     skill-energy: endurance points?

No, again, each character chooses his own path and that path
determines what else is available.  The Discipline Tree again.

>     c) You gain power by increasing your stats due to this
>     open-skill/open-spell policy.

In a way.  You can power by using your skills/spells and using your
attributes wich causes them to increase.

> And there's the rub. With this attribute only system, 2 players with
> the same values of those 3 caster stats are the same casters. No
> specialization.  No individuality. That's why all the attribute
> heavy RPGs still had the ability to train specific skills.  > >
> Without building some of that into there, you're not opening up more
> character possibilities [if that is the intention], you're
> homogenizing characters even more.


That is the serious problem, and thats why as I mentioned above, the
system is designed so this shouldn't happen.  I could be wrong though.

- John Vanderbeck


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