[MUD-Dev] Birthday Cake (or Why Large Scale Sometimes Sucks)(long)

[Matthew Mihaly]

On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Ola Fosheim [iso-8859-1] Gr=F8stad wrote:

> Matthew Mihaly wrote:
> > hail storm wiping out Farmer Bob's crops. Such things are part of life,
> > and quite frankly, if Timmy is basing his livelihood on something so
> > tenuous that an admin of a game he plays can accidentally destroy his
> > business, then Timmy is a bit of an idiot. Can you say "risk management=
?"
>=20
> But does the fact that Timmy is an idiot make the admin less
> responsible? I would have thought the opposite!! Some people think
> almost everybody but themselves are complete idiots... (Used to be me ;)
> What could this type of reasoning lead to? If one design systems that
> attracts idiots (or kids or other feeble minds) then one should be
> responsible for the detrimental effects of the system on said
> population. Some systems are clearly designed for idiots and marketed as
> such! >;-}  Your argument only holds if you take sufficient measures to
> exclude feeble minds.

The admin may be responsible, but he's responsible in the same way as the
universe is responsible for creating the hailstorm that destroyed Farmer
Bob's crops. I don't hold reality responsible for that, just as I wouldn't
hold the admin responsible for Timmy's problem. It's a meaningless kind of
responsibility, to me.

=20
> > Further, really people, let's stop trying to compare the power of an ad=
min
> > in a bloody virtual world with the power of a real government. It's not
> > comparable _at all_. I can leave a virtual world at the drop of a hat.
>=20
> That is debatable.  I doubt that you will leave Achaea at the drop of a
> hat. Prove it! ;) And even if you do, you would need to be provoked, to
> be "disturbed out of" the situation. If one don't see anything
> attractive on the horizon, then there is no subjective reason to leave,
> although there may be many objective reasons to leave beyond that
> horizon.

The point is that I _could_ leave Achaea at the drop of a hat. I choose
not to, and if I did, the only barriers I'd encounter would be
self-imposed ones (like my desire to continue earning the money it makes).
If I wanted to leave, say, 1950s Hungary, I would have had to risk torture
(my father was captured by the Soviets when fleeing after the '56
revolution, and had his teeth bashed out by a gun butt, for instance.
Given stories like this, you'll have to pardon me if I seem somewhat less
than sympathetic to the "plight" of we spoiled westerners who have enough
free time to spend hours playing games.)

=20
> I don't think one do justice to the complexity of the psyche by ruling
> out manipulative strategies that statistically will yield submissive
> behaviour in a significant portion of a population.

Sorry, not convinced. If it statistically yields submissive behavior in a
significant portion of a population, then that is a significant portion of
a population whose problems are their own fault.


=20
> > Not
> > so damn easy to do in most countries in the world, and in some cases (l=
ike
> > the filthy Soviets of the cold war), it was damn near impossible. Which=
 is
> > more powerful? The ability to oppress an entire people and wipe them ou=
t
> > if you choose (Hitler and the jews) or the ability to make the orcs you
> > bash in EQ stronger? Please.
>=20
> Depends on whether you are a jew or not, doesn't it? Many people were
> happy with Hitler. And the jews could leave too, I knew several old
> people who spent time in Germany before the war and didn't at all
> understand why the jews didn't leave, but eventually it was too late.
> Humans are not very good at dealing with things that slides slowly, or
> realizing things they wish were not true, this is pervasive in human
> life.

Ok, let's not get into a historical debate here. See the above. Some
people in the world are _actually_ oppressed and _actually_ can't do much
about it. People who spend hours playing muds are not in that category.
Boo hoo. Little Timmy has so much free time that he has to choose between
watching tv, playing a mud, or going outside and playing in his mine-free
backyard. I'm weeping for him!

=20
> Same thing goes for MUDs, not everybody can embrace the idea that they
> can leave. Or they don't see the symptoms, and everybody like to think
> of themselves as normal, but eventually it may be too late.

Yes, I understand that, but I put the full responsibility for that on the
person. I'm just completely unsympathetic to these sorts of people, as I
view them as spoiled whiners who have no idea how incredibly _easy_ their
lives are in comparison to, say, 99.9% of every person who has ever lived.


> Whether somebody else think they can leave is rather irrelevant, if they
> don't see it that way then it does not exist as an option to them? =20

Shrug, they should see it another way then. I don't care if the guy who
mugs me doesn't think he has another option. It's entirely his fault in my
mind.=20


> (I'm not going to comment on the logic which suggests that some
> manipulative/suppressive systems are ok because Hitler was worse)

I didn't mean they were ok. I meant that given that there is oppression in
the world which so dwarfs anything happening in muds, that it makes me
laugh to hear anyone debating how best to help these poor mudders, whilst
simultaneously ignoring the magnitudes greater suffering of so many. Yes,
muds are our arena, but I can't take the suffering of mudders seriously.
Global and historical awareness and all that.

=20
> > Don't ever forget that the virtual worlds we are all involved in creati=
ng
> > are merely a subset of the physical world. The physical world holds tot=
al
> > dominion over virtual worlds, and is always going to be far far far mor=
e
> > important.
>=20
> Again, this depends. People with disabilities can feel freer in the
> virtual world. Some people spend the majority of their "immersed" life
> in a virtual world.  For some people the physical world is the prison.
> For others the virtual world becomes a prison. For some, both are
> prisons.

None of the virtual worlds can exist independent of the physical world.

=20
> If we assume that the physical world is more important than the virtual
> alternate realities, then it becomes imperative that people don't spend
> as much time there, exactly because that detach them from being informed
> about the physical reality. Which in turn is imperative for democracy to
> work (which presumably secures your freedom).

Imperative to whom? The physical world is more important than the virtual
to me because the virtual is 100% dependent on the physical. It is, in
fact, PART of "reality." Any time you spend in a virtual world is still
being spent in reality. And I don't care if democracy works or not. I'm
not a big fan and have never voted.

=20
> I personally don't believe the physical world is more important than the
> virtual, because I think information is more vital than matter, and
> thinking is more important than existing. Thus I don't see any problem
> in people spending their entire life online, actually I think it is much
> worse that they spend their entire life with a job that keeps them
> "locked". I do however have a problem with systems that don't provide a
> fairly continuous creative growth path. (think Flow) Which many amateur
> MUDs do in fact provide, you can become an imp, and then run your own
> system, and ultimately design and implement your own system.

Well, ok. When you manage to run software without electrons, photons, and
hardware, you let me know.


> > Virtual societies are part of "real" societies (rather, they ARE real
> > societies).
>=20
> But how is this consistent with the above idea that the physical is more
> important than the virtual? Unless you think that societies are not
> important..?

Because the virtual worlds cannot exist independent of "reality".

--matt




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