[MUD-Dev] trade skill idea
msew
msew at ev1.net
Mon Oct 2 14:58:31 CEST 2000
executive summary:
Trade skills in the current MMP games all suck. They are boring, tedious,
and are of the form: just get some items and hit combine. A person doing
trade skills should have just as much fun as someone out killing monsters.
To do this trade skills must be made more complex and also have a chaotic
aspect applied to them. The human player's skill should matter. Two
characters could be identical in all aspects but the human players who are
playing them are different and should matter in the process, just as it
does in combat.
Trade skills should incorporate some of the things that makes
adventuring/combat interesting. Location should matter, the distribution
of characters with you should matter, there should be risk, there should be
time constraints, etc etc.
A single person should not be able to make the higher level things. The
process for "higher level" items is too complex and the head trade skill
guy should need helpers/assistants.
Further once you have the apprentice/master relationships occurring that
should factor into the advancement through the various skill lvls. Having
people be "forced" to travel the world to learn the various secrets from
masters is a nice thing.
There should be probably be a distinction between trade skill folk and the
adventuring folk. From having such a distinction, you have dependencies
that can result in organized groups of both sets having to combine to
create wondrous uber items.
Below is a more detailed accounting of this idea.
-- long version --
So in the MMP worlds of today there are a lot of things you can do. Some
of them are interesting and challenging to a degree and some are just mind
numbing boring.
For this discussion of an idea I will say the following:
participating in combat is interesting
participating in trade skills is BORING
The goal is that BOTH combat and trade skills should be interesting.
Someone should be able to be a bread maker and have JUST as much fun in the
game world as the mighty warrior that fights against the hordes of monsters
out there. (assumption being that macroing and combining things and then
clicking a button in the hopes of getting a success is not enjoyable)
What makes combat fun/exciting is the question.
combat is:
-you get to do it solo
-you get to do it with a group
-it is probabilistic based
-harder things require more organization/ people to defeat
-it is chaotic to a degree
-location matters (ie mobs exist only in certain places)
-requires specific tools to make the kill
-requires specific distribution of classes/skills to make the kill
-you usually get a reward from killing a monster (treasure, eq)
-you gain exp
-you gain skill pts in skills you use
-semi repetitive
-risk
trade skills are:
-you get to do it solo
-it is 100% probabilistic based
-you get to make things
-you gain skills pts in the skills you use
-VERY VERY repetitive
-requires specific tools to make the item
-harder things require more resources to make
-no real risk
One of the reasons combat is so much more enjoyable than trade skills is
that there is a chaotic-ness to it. Call it a chaotic process if you
will. In addition there is an inherent risk involved in it. If you mess
up you are dead possibly. Lastly, the skill of the player MATTERS.
Yet for trade skills we don't really have the same type of experience. You
buy some components and then hit combine. And then you have some
probabilistic chance of success. Skill of the player does NOT matter.
I think looking at the process of how combat occurs might lead to some
insight in how to make trade skills strictly better than they are now.
Trade skills should be designed in such a way that people get the same
adrenaline rush that they can get in combat.
Trade skills should depend on the PLAYER and not the character's
skills. (ie player Foo has skill 110 in bread making and player Bar has
skill 110 in bread making. And they have the same stats. Great these two
guys are equivalent in the game. If I want the uber raisin bread i can go
to either of them. )
Both players make the raisin bread in the same way. Get ingredients and
hit combine.
So a way to look at this is to make the trade skills into a player skill
based system. In combat you can have to exact same characters and there
can be clearly one who is better. Player skill should matter.
Further trade skills should not be just get a bunch of "ingredients" and
then throw them together and hit combine. Creating items you go through a
process. And that process had certain constraints (ie the oven must
maintain 450 degrees).
For example the smithing of a sword.
-forge temperature
-metal temp
-metal type
-cooling water type
-cooling water temp
-strength hit with hammer
for bread:
-freshness of ingredients
-lumpiness of batter
-type of fuel used for oven
-temperature of oven
-material type the pans are made of
-material type of utensils
Skill level, instead of only determining success, would also give
information about the various states of the ingredients/implements to make
the trade skill object.
Example:
While forging, the optimal temperature for blue steel is 340 degrees. The
smith skill level determines how much data the character will get about the
temperature of the metal. So a low level skill lvl smith will get
information like: greater than 100 degrees and that is about it while a
highly skilled smith would get like temp is 340 +/- 5.
Consequences from not maintaining the correct temperature result in a less
than perfect object being created. The sword's durability is max of 40
instead of 60. Or the sword's sharpness rating is max of 10 and not 12.
You can see that ALL parts of the process can have constraints on
them. When the constraint is not met there are deductions from certain
properties of the object being made. (ie a sword could have, sharpness,
durability, weight, etc etc)
So in combat (and in irl trade skills) the most complex things are made by
teams of people. For example:
A player wants to make the meta-sword. And the meta sword needs to have
certain properties met to be created. (eg a forge being able to have 1000
degree temp, need to be made of an alloy of blue steel and meteorite metal,
cooling water temp must be 40 degrees, etc etc)
you can then make it so that one player can NOT maintain all of the
properties that need to be maintained.
ie:
to make the meta sword you need a forge that can have 1000 degrees temp.
you need the special meteorite metal
you need to have special cooling water
you need a special hammer
you need special combustible (wood, special rocks that hold heat)
Add time constraints to these things :) Ie the wood must be no more than
12 hours irl old.
Even with out time constraints the number of things that must be balanced
will be too much for one individual to do.
Now add in that you only have so many skill pts to allocate! and you are
going to have these uber trade skill people that are not really combat
ready. And the only place to make the meta-sword is the forge in the
middle of the cyclops! Have to now get your little wussy smith to the
middle of the cyclops lair! Add in some constraints that say the smith
needs to actually give some if his life into the sword so he can not have
died in the last 24 hours or what not (ie the kill smith and drag him to
the forge then res him ). And the fact that he has to have a bunch of
helpers along to work the other parts of the smithing process. and you
need to have a well planned group of people to get to the cyclops forge and
hold it while the meta sword is being created.
Clearly, this also leads to items that are more complex than just: a sword
is a sword is a sword is a sword.
Because you now have all these wonderful factors: heat, strength of
materials, strength of beating the sword, various songs bard sing to
enchant it, etc etc
those are all mixed into what a sword is.
Swords will be different and almost always unique. Different craftsmen
will have their own style of sword even when they have the same skill level
because the players differ. That Player A had some intuition to hit the
metal at a certain point in the process that Player B did not have.
One might even create a system where there are no "pre generated" recipes
for items and just let the players combine stuff to make an item that has
various properties. One can imagine having made some berry bread that
makes a certain race of creature food sick and another race completely
invigorated. Or a sword that just shatters when using it in a cold region.
It is easiest to see this in the smithing area but with a little thought
you can apply it to cooking, weaving, animal husbandry, chemistry,
tinkering, etc etc.
The semi abstract model of a trade skill is:
-time constraints on all "ingredients"
-specific quality of material required
-specific skill level required
-specific process to go through
- each step must meet constraints
-enumeration of attributes of the object being created mapped to the process
-location (will be important but it is a side effect of the constraints of
the object being made. eg: meteoric metal needs 1000 degree able forge. 2
forges that can do that are: red dragon forge and the cyclops forge)
In addition looking at trade skills this way allows you to have all kinds
of wonderful social dynamics. Certain groups of players are just going to
have that "special thing" that makes their trade skill items just better
than others. Their player skill / intuition has some power over the
chaotic process :-). So other characters will be seeking them out!
Further, you make your trade skill system be modeled such that to advance
in skill level you need to work with a master! So you can have various
NPCs and PCs that are masters and you want to go and work with them on a
number of projects in order to move up the skill lvl ladder!
thoughts?
msew
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