[MUD-Dev] Alternatives to PvP for sustainable fiction?

[Sean Kelly]

From: "Matt Mihaly" <the_logos at achaea.com>
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Sean Kelly wrote:

> Erm, except that Everquest, the most successful of the American
> MUDs, is also the most like the most popular codebase, Diku. I
> would say Everquest completely validated the Diku model as a
> popular successful one (much as I dislike Diku myself).

Never played Everyquest so I can't comment :)

>>  The problem is that the MUD model is built on the old P&P >
>>  model of 5 people sitting around a table.  That is, the world is
>>  > generally designed to support a single small party of
>>  adventurers.  > This carries over fairly well into MUDs because
>>  the population > densitity stays sufficiently low that the
>>  illusion that each party > is exploring an area pretty much on
>>  their own is never violated.

> I'd have to disagree. I've never played a P&P game anything like I
> play most MUDs. It's like a MUSH (which I view as a subset of
> MUDs) but definitely not much like most MUDs I have seen, which
> are mindless simplistic monster bashing without much RP.

And thus begins the debate of whether CRPGs brought combat-minded
gamers into P&P or if they'd always been there.  My point wasn't
whether the game included combat or not (it's an obvious limitation
of computers that they can model combat fairly well but can't
roleplay so well) but that the model of MUDs leverages the
single-small-party concept in its design, and succeeds because of
the relatively small population and low player density.

>> Within a week of UO's release, the player density to world size
>> was such that everywhere you went you would see players.  The
>> most dangerous dungeons in the world were as populous as Times
>> Square.  The only apparent advantage UO had was that it didn't
>> purport to have much of an overarching plot, and respawning
>> monsters didn't appear to bother anyone that much.

> You're being a little hard I think. UO was _way_ better produced
> than any text MUD I've seen. Comprehensive profession system, etc
> etc.

UO has some great features.  They have the best skill system around
and their initial concept of an ecology and closed economy were
fantastic (IMO beta was when the game was at its best).  Still, the
world was small enough that you could run across it in a matter of
minutes and it just couldn't support the massive influx of players
it had when it went into production.  I understand that it's since
grown, however.

> But no MMORPG claims to survive on developer-created
> content. Everyone is aware that the other players are the primary
> draw. One of my players opined the other day that in his text and
> graphical MUD experience, 80% of the time is spent entertaining
> himself and 20% is spent being entertained. Further, a lot of
> people simply like being in a world with so many people that there
> are many sub-communities and sub-sub communities within to
> participate in. I mean, you might ask why anyone would want to
> live in a big city instead of a small town with a few of your
> friends, but to me at least, the answer is obvious.

This returns to the player personality issue.  I'm an explorer.
When I play MUDs, my time in town is limited to little more than a
resupply.  I'll chitchat for a couple minutes, help out new players,
and then I'm off after that remote dot on the map.

As for big cities.  I lived in NYC for quite a while.  Anonymity is
directly proportional to population density.  People are so used to
being around each other in NYC that they completely tune them out,
to the extent that they do things in a crowded subway that is
normally reserved for the privacy of the home.  If you want to talk
to people, go to a small town.  There's no better place to be
ignored than a big city.  Still, I guess the night life offers a
host of options to socialize.  It's interesting to watch how the
different social circles overlap, join and drift apart... cities are
like one big organism.  As for why people are attracted to such
places however, I'm baffled, but then I'm an explorer :)

> Everyone can be a hero and everyone can be an adventurer. It's
> just a matter of how you look at it. If you are able to look at it
> from within the context of the world, there are only a couple
> thousand players on with you, and a whole WORLD of people out
> there that you're saving from the evil monster hordes (or maybe a
> whole world of people out there that you're trying to oppress as
> much as possible. ;)

But what world?  Of the MMORPGs I've played, NPC population is
limited essentially to shopowners.  I understand that this is to
keep server load down, but still.  Personally, I can't maintain the
fiction well enough to believe that there is an invisible populace
out there that needs me.  Most MMORPGs don't have an economy, a
government, or a citizenry.  They're playgrounds for people to go
monster bashing.  Kind of a giant multiplayer roguelike.  UO has
guilds which I grant are a step in the right direction, but it still
doesn't have commoners.

When I first heard about how UO was going to have an ecology I
thought "wow... a band of orcs in the woods will need to find food
to eat... say that takes them into a nearby village... instant
quest!"  But for various reasons this never came about.  I'd love to
see more NPCs in game, a better interaction model, and another
attempt at an ecology and closed resource system.  It's a definate
step towards emergent behavior.

> Except that it's not quite so easy. The main problem with
> describing it as above is that what do you do when one side has
> been completely defeated? It tends to provide an excellent
> opportunity for exit for the losing players, and you don't want
> that.

True.  But then there's also the possibility of rebellion if the
ruling group is evil, and the introduction of a new opposition if it
is not.  Middle Earth was quite peaceful until Sauron started
gathering his forces (though there were opposing kingdoms).  The
designers could easily take a hand to make sure that either the
conflict stays fairly balanced or to create a new one.  And I think
that even left alone a well-modeled world could support a
self-styled Alexander for only so long before his nation crumbled.


Sean

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