[MUD-Dev] Maintaining fiction.

[Ian Collyer]

Matt Mihaly wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Madman Across the Water wrote:
>> Matt Mihaly wrote:
  
>>> So if they change, then how do they define the character?

>> Therefore I answer with what I believe, through my anecdotal
>> experience as a gamer, would be the answer given by most players,
>> who know nothing about databases, flags, or the internals of a
>> game. And I believe that most of them would not believe that
>> their equipment was a part of their character. But then, most of
>> them would believe their character had persisted if they had been
>> hit with a curse that dropped all their stats/XP to newbie
>> level. Or if they put in a request for a name change and it was
>> granted.

> Right, a character is a mental construction I think.

To me a character is a combination of the two, my mental picture of
the persona I wish to play is the 'soul' of the character, the
database entries on the MUD (stats, skills, etc.) are the 'body'.
Take away either one and the character 'dies', at least as far as
that MUD is concerned.

Could the character be 'reborn' on another MUD?  Perhaps, but then
I'm playing a meta-game outside the natural laws of any one MUD.

>> I think that if, upon dying under the right conditions, your
>> character were not brought back, and you were required to start
>> another one, this is permadeath.

> But we've already established that a character cannot be
> represented in a database, so how could the code of a game wipe
> out a character? The more I think about it, the more nonsensical
> permadeath-as-defined-by-code seems as a concept.

If my character is dead and the natural laws of the MUD offer no
further chance of resurrection then that is effective permadeath.

I _know_ as a player that my character has died and nothing I can do
within the limits imposed on me by the MUD can bring him back.  Sure
I can create a new set of database entries with the same name,
skills, attributes as the original; but the suspension of disbelief
required to think of this new avatar as the same character is simply
too great, I _know_ he died, irrevocably.

>> If the new character gets everything the old one had, then it
>> isn't really starting a new one. But, I'm going to continue to
>> pick on Ackadia, which has both kinds of deaths. Especially with
>> death followed by resurrection to contrast it with, I doubt there
>> is anyone on Ackadia who doesn't feel that its brand of
>> permadeath isn't permadeath.  Their character died,
>> permanently. Their new one gets a consolation prize, but the old
>> one is still dead and gone. To their greater shame or glory.

> But the old one isn't dead and gone. The player can simply play
> the same character, just with new database entries (and since
> database entires fluctuate all the time anyway, is it any
> different? I don't think so).

As I said above, my character died, no set of database entries
however similar to the original can ever bring him back.  I guess
I'm just more roleplayer than rollplayer ;)

>> But then, I tend towards the roleplayer side of the spectrum. So
>> my characters tend to have an identity. Permadeath is anything
>> that would cause that identity to cease.

> So really, only by choice of the player can a character actually
> die permanently (ie suffer permadeath) regardless of game
> mechanics. That seems good.

I don't see it so much a choice as a mind-set, for a while I _was_
that character, then he died and the link was forever severed.

Perhaps if I were more of a GoP player and less of a roleplayer it
would be different, but I doubt then that I would have sufficient
empathy with my avatar for the issue of permadeath to bother me.
Any means of resurrection is valid, after all 'it's just a game' ;)

>> But once we get to this level, there is no permadeath. It's an
>> impossibility. Once you allow for a character to move from one
>> MUD to another... I could have a character permadie on some MUD,
>> then make a new character, and make an effort to acquire all the
>> exact same skills, etc, and claim that I am the same
>> person. Hell- in various tabletop games I've played, characters
>> have transfered players- Sean quits, and Gary takes over playing
>> The Black Fox... and made him his character. So even killing the
>> player doesn't cut it. So permadeath is impossible.

>> If we disagree that permadeath is impossible, than the above
>> can't be the definition we want to use for permadeath. And that
>> definition may well be fluid- what counts as permadeath on one
>> MUD may well not on another- a MUD where everything about your
>> character is equipment vs one where there is no equipment, for
>> example.

> Permadeath isn't impossible, it's just that a game can't mandate
> it.

It's impossible to enforce permadeath on those unwilling to accept
it, or those who do not care about such things.

But for those who believe in the MUD and truly immerse themselves in
it there's no escape from a permadeath.

>> So, the new question- what is _meaningful_ "permadeath"? Ackadia
>> has permadeath of a sort that has a function and it successfully
>> serves that function. ZAngband (my Roguelike of choice) has
>> permadeath. You can avoid it by abusing the saved game, but I'm
>> among those that don't do so, and it makes it much more
>> meaningful when you manage to have a winner when you know
>> permadeath lurked around each vault.

> I have to say, that doesn't sound like meaningful permadeath. Heh,
> the cliche "He's still alive as long as we remember him." seems
> fairly apt here.


>> I'm not sure where to go from here- I think permadeath can exist
>> and is meaningful. Aside from that it's all vague.

> I do too, I just don't think any game can legitimately claim to
> have any control over whether the characters in it die permanently
> or not.

I think that claim can be made if you accept that a character is
more than mere database entries. Those 'true' characters are then a
subset of the entries in the 'character' table, the rest being
simply vehicles for their player's achieving.
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