[MUD-Dev] RE: Knowledge Modeling -- WAS: -- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote)

[Zak Jarvis]

> From: John Buehler [johnbue at msn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:38 PM

> Zak Jarvis writes:

  (Second level attribution is a good thing)

>> From my perspective, you're tackling the wrong end of this
>> hydra. My personally preferred perspective (a little alliteration
>> anyone?) on the whole 'casual gamer' thing is that the game
>> mechanics need to be simplified to the greatest extent possible. I
>> think that's somewhat born out by comparing Asheron's Call to
>> Everquest.

> Um, the password stuff isn't really related to addressing casual
> gamers.  But I agree with the simplification process.  It's true of
> any piece of software with a user interface.  If you want to put it
> in front of novice users, you have to use a variety of techniques,
> including a well-integrated help system and progressive disclosure
> of application features (which must be clearly presented).

Well, it's semi-true. There are plenty of graphics people who utterly
loathe Bryce. I happen to love the app, and still use it for any of
the things it's strong. Of course, this doesn't actually invalidate
what you said, as the people I'm talking about tend to specifically be
*not* novices.

All that aside (and this is getting ahead of myself in the reply, but
I'm going to be trimming some for brevity and clarity), who exactly IS
the password knowledge modeling system for then? It strikes me (along
with introduction systems) as a very solid barrier to entry for casual
gamers.

>> In EQ, if I didn't match my friends playing nearly hour for hour,
>> it wasn't long before I simply couldn't join them in gameplay. As a

   <snippage>

> I never played Asheron's Call with other people because I wanted to
> do some casual gaming after a year of hardcore EverQuest (blech).
> While it can be done, it gets kinda boring without the social
> interaction.  Given that the group things to do in Asheron's Call
> are all about killing stuff and accumulating power, I didn't want to
> get back into that element of gaming and gave up on Asheron's Call.

Yes, I can certainly see how that would happen. I was lucky in that I
was accepted into Beta 2 of AC, which very quickly dried up my desire
to play EQ. I think I played EQ for a total of about 3 months.

Long enough, I'll add, to get our next door neighbors yelling at us to
be quiet because my wife and I were yelling at each other stupid
things like "Watch out for that orc behind you!" at 3am.  Terribly
uncivilized. Alas.

<snipped some quibbling details about password systems>

>> One of these days I really, truly will have the time to write this
>> up properly, but the essence of it is generating goals for players
>> that intersect. Basically, get players to do the heavy lifting of
>> quest generation. Goals can be simple, achieving them can be as

    <some minor detail snippage>

> For what it's worth, what I'm hearing here is very much the way I'd
> like to go as well.  As I've said before, it is permutations of
> scenarios that truly provide new content and entertainment.

Unfortunately, I think I'll be writing an essay on a different topic
first. (I have no idea when I'll have time to get around to putting
down my theory about using the principles of BDSM communities in
multi-player game management... <sigh> No, I'm not kidding.)

> Eliminating classes and letting players move their characters around
> the skills map permits lots of unique combinations of characters to
> interact.  As groups of character encounter a challenge, they fish
> about for ways to deal with it.

Actually, I think for attracting casual gamers, the better bet is a
better defined system of rigid classes and removing skills and levels,
but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

    <snip scenario of scripted password sharing>

>> What is accomplished by having password knowledge be modeled?

> Not much, given that somebody wants to 'game' the game.  But at
> least the password can only be obtained by traveling to that town
> square.  You're also using hardcore techniques for slight gain.
> Remember that

First, it's a mistake to assume that just because there is slight or
no gain that players won't do it. Often players will do something
precisely because they feel you don't want them to do it. (Zak raises
his own hand at this point and pleads guilty).

Sure you can decentralize and break up the world so that it still
takes some effort to reach the password disseminator, but that
presumes that there won't be a guild which sets up bots in the town
square of all your cities to hand out all the passwords to anyone as a
recruitment technique.

>> Porkmelon. Theodore can't make it to the club that night, and
>> William goes, the password is accepted and all is well. The next
>> night they both go, this time William is stopped: Porkmelon is
>> already here. Go away.

> Is that good?  Is that intuitive to the players?  I'm only dumping
> an game interface mechanism that isn't intuitive, but which can be
> learned.  The net result is entirely believable.  If I introduce a
> game internal mechanism that isn't intuitive, then I have to deal
> with the repurcussions of its funky behavior.  For example, we start
> to

>From my experience, unintuitive game interface is vastly more
limiting to players than game internal mechanisms. As others have
pointed out, it is *not* entirely believable that as a player I must
know the command to share passwords and cannot simply tell or be
told. The basic problem is that neither method is entirely believable
and I posit that choosing to put the burden of a non-intuitive
mechanism on the interface instead of the world limits exactly what I
think I've heard you saying that you desired; casual gamers and an
easy-going attitude.


------------------------------------------------------------------
"He has heaped up defilement on the city,
 imposing on the unlucky city strange customs.
 The King of Uruk-of-the-wide-marketplaces
 lets the drum of the people be beaten, banns of marriage."
                              - Sin-Leqi-Unninni, as translated by
                                John Gardner and John Maier

-Zak Jarvis
 http://www.voidmonster.com

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