[MUD-Dev] Advertising Thread

[Rayzam]

From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com>
> Rayzam said:

>> Advertising tends to be targetted. Someone walking into EBX is
>> into playing computer games. Someone checking out The
>> Mudconnector, or half a dozen other online game related sites are
>> into playing those types of games.

> When is the MUD market ever grown then?  You just hope someone
> stumbles on to The Mudconnector by blind chance?

You seem to be making a division between MMORPGs and MUDs. MMORPGs
expanded the mud market. Granted a lot of it happened by
Word-of-mouth, as others pointed out.

Besides, why do I need to pull in all new people? There's apparently
over 300k people who mud, but aren't playing Retro. That's the
selfish, personal view.

The way to get new people in is through two main avenues: Again, by
word-of-mouth. This one takes no money.

Franchises: Warcraft, Star Wars, Toons, etc.These franchises can
expect a certain number of box-buyers, and can afford to advertise
more. Their targetted demographic, by the way, are those who are
familiar with the franchise. Just like the EBX/gamer contingency. I
doubt we'll see ads in say Good Housekeeping. Though if Raph has his
way with the casual gamer ;)

>> So it's not a question of rarefied.

> Yes, it is.  I don't have player numbers but I do have some $
> figures:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/industry_news_display_plain.php?story=1245

>     2002 Console market = $31 billion
>     2002 PC market      = $8.5 billion
>     2002 online market  = $0.873 billion

> Given that there's a 35:1 difference between expenditure on
> consoles and well-known online games of all types, what kind of
> player numbers would you like to put on "unknown MUDs?"

I've lost the plot on the point[s] you've been trying to make in
this thread, as they seem to jump around. Is it MUDs don't
advertise, MUD advertising doesn't work, MUDs are a tiny niche, MUDs
aren't of interest to game designers, MUDs aren't necessary for
designing MMORPGs, all, none, or some of the above? :)

If we compare these numbers to money spent on cars, the automobile
market is much larger. I'm not sure what the relevance of this
is. So yes, there are less text-mud players than graphical mud
players. The money spent by the graphical muds is larger than that
spent by the text-muds. But again, it's a matter of
audience. Advertising is targetted. You don't often see feminine
product ads on TV during football games. Nor do you see Craftsman
tool ads on during Oprah.

Successful advertising is based on reaching your demographic. You've
pointed out end-aisle displays in EBX. End-aisle displays in
Electronics Boutique reach those who play video/computer games. They
don't reach those who don't go into Electronics Boutique in the
first place. Similarly, mud advertising is on the websites of those
who mud. If the cost/benefit of the advertising is good, then it
works.

On Retromud, we track the revenue/players gained through our various
advertising efforts. When advertising doesn't work, we don't renew
our ads there. Where it does work, we place more of our advertising
budget there.

So my points here are:

  Some muds do advertise.

  Advertising can be accounted for.

  Advertising that works, can continue to have money spent on it.

  Advertising that doesn't, has its budget pulled.

Just like any business.

>> Sure, there are less MUD players than computer game players, than
>> console game players. But the same way you can say that the ads
>> haven't reached a game designer of 4 years, you can say that game
>> designers of 4 years should have been interested in/following up
>> on the breadth of the field for their own edification.

> Looking at the numbers above, it's quite clear that MUDs are a
> teeny, tiny, eensy, weensy part of the "breadth of the field."
> Like 1% of what a game designer could concern himself with.  I'm
> sure you'll understand why so many game designers found something
> else to do, and didn't spend their days studying up on MUDs that
> have never effectively advertized their capabilities.

Ah, but the point here was game designers who are attempting to make
graphical muds or next-generation graphical muds.  Those game
designers should be interested in 99% of that 'tiny part' of the
field. You're right, those making Quake, Black & White,
Rollercoaster Tycoon, didn't spend their time on it.

Going back to the car example. I wouldn't want someone building a
sportscar or a next-generation car, who has experience building
boats, but never looked up/researched cars and how they work. Hey,
just put a few wheels on a boat, and attach the motor to the rear
wheels via a belt :)

So, a game designer with experience in single player games, even
crpgs, is now tapped for doing a MMORPG, because the execs have seen
Sony's revenue numbers. Do they just rework it with network support,
or do research? Of course, they do research. In doing the research,
they should end up on those places where mud advertising *does
work*.

Of course, I take offense at 'MUDs that have never effectively
advertised their capabilities'. Again, on the personal front, Retro
advertises. Our advertising works overall, all because Mike Tresca
manages it, manages it like any business, and manages it well. In
that sense, Retro effectively advertises its capabilities.
Effectiveness does not equal reaching people who don't mud/play
online games. By your definition, the advertising you've mentioned
isn't effective because there are hundreds of millions of people in
the world who do other things, and spend their money on other things
and computer games are a tiny part of all bought goods, and they
don't concern themselves with it. The number one consumer product?
Food. Compared to all the people who buy food in the world, no game
advertising is effective.

But as I've been pointing out, it's erroneous to judge it like that.

>> If you're a researcher getting into a new question, you always
>> want to read up on everything going on in that part of the
>> field. Even for your own line of research, you want to keep up
>> with everything available. Doesn't seem to be the case nowadays.

> Perhaps because the big guys spending money aren't there to
> research, but to ship a product.  They could dig around in MUD
> history all they like; where's the value add?  Sometimes there is
> one, such as a technical architecture.  Often times there is not.
> Who cares who did the first underwater area?  And even if you do
> find a good technical architecture, how often are they so amazing
> and important that it couldn't stand a redesign from scratch?

You're right, the big buys spending money are there to ship a
product.  But it's an investment. You want to make the product as
good as you possibly can, so it brings in the biggest revenue it
can. Poor products bring poor returns.

The value added isn't necessarily in what works, but in finding out
what doesn't. I think there are a lot of lessons learned from the
mud world that are useful. If I didn't believe in the inherent
usefulness, I doubt I'd be subscribed to Mud-Dev.  The archives are
a wealth of knowledge. Or take a look at the Laws, garnered from
years of mud experience.

But this is opinion. I believe that in designing, research comes
first.  I believe it's important to learn what works, what doesn't
work, the merits and faults of different systems.

I also see many clone games coming out, that just ship a different
flavor of something already out there. That's also a valid model
that makes money, and doesn't require any research.

>> So how does the concept get marketed to a larger audience?
>> Franchises that have a large target audience moving into the
>> field: Star Wars & Warcraft.

> This doesn't help The Mudconnector get a larger audience.  It
> doesn't make anyone more aware of MUD history.  It makes people
> more aware of Star Wars and Warcraft, whatever they implement in
> their own MMOGs.

2 different points here. First, I think it does get a larger
audience to muds. Anytime more people know what an online rpg is,
then there's a larger audience available to play the
games. Explaining the concept is the hard part. It was the same with
computers. Most people had no real clue about them. They were things
for the engineers, computer people, scientists. A niche
product. What brought them more mainstream? Understanding. 'It can
increase your productivity.' is fairly meaningless when you've never
used one, and you *know* you can use your typewriter/ledger/steno
pad/dictaphone/tele-conference. Once the understanding hit some
people, then word-of-mouth spread it next. 'Joe down the street got
one. You should see it.' Or someone showed their parents how to use
it: keep recipes, do taxes, balance the checkbook.

I'm not saying text muds are going to explode in population. I'm
just saying that there are precedents. Franchises will work on those
interested in the franchise and get them to try something they don't
really understand/know. If they like it, some will try other
forms. Thus, there will be a larger audience interested in online
games.

I misspoke if I said people need to be more aware of MUD
history. What I meant was that game designers making MMORPGs, or
next-gens should be aware of the market. Know your product. There
are enough failures/cancellations to give lie to 'If you build it,
they will come.'

The confusion probably comes from this thread evolving into 2
separate issues:

  Issue A:

    Should designers making MMORPGs know/care/research all the
    varieties of MUDs, graphical or not?  Is researching
    EQ/AC/AO/DAoC enough to design your own next-gen MMORPG?

  Issue B:

    Do MUDs advertise? What is the demographic for text-mud
    advertising?  Should text-muds advertise to bring in more
    mainstream gamers and/or expand the market, or is that the venue
    of the deeper-pockets MMORPGs? What is successful (mud)
    advertising?

Maybe it should split into those two issues. But I've babbled on
with my answers to those questions enough.

Rayzam




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