[MUD-Dev] 3rd Axis for Bartle's 2 axis theory of MUD players

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad <olag@ifi.uio.no>]

"Dave Rickey" <daver at mythicentertainment.com> writes:

> *Differing* levels of immersion cause social problems.  The
> classic case is the Roleplayer/Powergamer split, the roleplayer is
> trying to behave as if the experience is real, where the
> powergamer is just manipulating the system to generate the most
> advantageous numbers.

Two roleplayers assuming two different fictional universes may
distract each other as well... Even if they are immersed at the same
level. So this isn't strictly a matter of immersion, but conflicting
"world views", or?

I get the same feeling when discussing world politics with
right-winged people. They are clearly "idiots playing a different
game, destroying all illusions and hopes of a world in harmony"...

(I am not saying that RP conflicts are common. Roleplayers tend to
adapt to each other. They are after all a small minority and
therefore very happy to discover that other roleplayers do
exists...)

> Although they are playing in the same world, they aren't playing
> the same game, and each feels that the other is invalidating their
> own playstyle.

This is not as a result of immersion, but as a result of different
attitudes or playing the game at different levels. The powergamer
gets pissed off because the roleplayers refuse to kill a particular
valuable beast because it is sacred or cute.

> "Flow" would be something else.  Flow definitely represents some
> kind of 'tuned in", zen-like state, but it's not directly related
> to immersion.

Both you and Richard (Bartle) say this, but I have so far seen no
arguments in favour of it except for the idea that it is possible to
daydream in the virtual world. Something I am not all that convinced
of (besides, daydreaming seems to be rather flow like in nature). I
think there is a correlation between flow and immersion. Perhaps of
differing magnitude, but still a correlation.

The only counter argument I can think of right now is that it is
realistically achievable to "suspend-disbelief" by sensory
stimulation. This I doubt, and I think research has little to show
for it, and there is quite a bit of research on this I believe. Is
it at all possible to be immersed into something you don't have a
strong interest in?

One counter argument might be that you can immerse yourself into a
movie, but my experience is that I tend to start thinking about
unrelated stuff during the less engaging parts of the movie. Think
also about horror movies: you keep shouting to the hero "don't be
stupid, don't do it, don't do it", trying to gain control over the
disaster that could be avoided... Hence flow-like.

Note: I am not saying that flow necessarily is tightly coupled to
immersion, but I think that flow is present when immersion is. And
I'd like to see the counter arguments, not the opinions ;).

--
Ola - http://folk.uio.no/olag/

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