[MUD-Dev] Player malleable worlds (was expected value and standard deviation)

[Corpheous Andrakin]

--- Chanur Silvarian wrote:

> There is a second key word here, "compelling".  Unless you define
> "compelling" in some non-subjective way then you already know that
> nobody can succeed in your challenge.  What is compelling to one
> person may or may not be to another.  I cited a small example of
> my own content from UO and its limited tools.  The tools that NWN
> gave to players has made for some beautiful content.  Sure, NWN is
> not an MMO but it is multiplayer and it is an example of some very
> compelling player created content.

Quite right, NWN is NOT a MMOG, most of the tools used to make the
major MMOGs on the market are volatile, powerful and definitely not
even close to being dumbed down and made ready for use by your
average user.  Half-Life did it too, releasing code for modders.
But neither of these games handles thousands of players at the same
time in the same place on the same server.  To make such tools would
take out a lot of time from things that players whine about most,
like class balance, and bug fixes.  I can see the "balance" we'll
get if we let the player do it :P

> The problem is that every major MMO release since UO has had less
> and less tools for player created content.  People are now
> discussing player generated graphics and such, which if it can be
> implemented is great, but if only the five simple tools that UO
> had were implemented into a new release it would be leaps and
> bounds ahead of its competitors for player content.

I'm not aware of the tools UO had that players used, I'll do some
research.

> Why deny the ability to sit in a chair?  Why deny the ability to
> put a plate of cookies on a table and allow people sitting around
> the chair to "eat" the cookies?  Why deny the ability to write a
> few pages of text in a book that can then be set on a shelf for
> others to read later?  Why deny the ability to drop an object
> (sword, ring, shirt, whatever) onto the ground and have it
> actually look like its title rather than a bag?

Because each of those little things requires a LOT of coding if
they're going to work and work GOOD.  The graphics on the ground
thing is sometimes more of a network coding issue than a "we can't
do it" issue.  If you have to draw some huge magnificent sword and a
multitude of other stuff on the ground for 50 players as opposed to
a couple bags which do you think will provide a higher framerate and
which will give the player a lower ping?  This may seem like simple
stuff but it's actually a huge pain in the rear if you're going to
do it RIGHT, because thats what players demand.

> You, as a developer, are making a quality judgement on the
> player's content creation.  Making such a judgement is akin to
> saying "the average player can't PvP worth a crap" and your answer
> is akin to saying "I won't put in PvP because the average player
> can't PvP worth a crap".  Whether the ability judgement is true or
> not is irrelevant since it is not your place to judge the
> playstyle or ability of the player.  If the player wants to PvP,
> even in a crappy way, then let them.  If the player wants to
> create content (and many do), even in a crappy way, then why deny
> them?

This is the ultimate developer problem.  Putting in content for all
types of players.  Richard Bartle has an excellent book that breaks
your average user down in his own terms and may help you think of a
couple different ways to try and provide content for
everyone. Unfortunately, the balance is so fickle that providing
even a little bit more content for one playstyle may lead to another
type of person leaving the game, which obviously the developer
doesn't want.  Some people don't like PvP in their games at all.  Or
don't want to HAVE to PvP but having the option still there just in
case.  Everyone is different and if you have some magical formula to
provide the exact content everyone wants at the same time (which if
actually impossible) then please share :) It's very hard to provide
content for one PvP player who wants to PK at anytime, anywhere and
then provide content for another player who doesn't want PvP at all.
That's why there's the middle ground you're starting to see for PvP.

> Start small, with things like writing in a book, having dropped
> objects look like their title, and some mechanism to program a
> conversation on an NPC.  Those are simple things.  If someday the
> player generated graphics can be made to work, all the better, but
> don't overlook the simple stuff just because the grandious stuff
> is difficult/impossible at this time.

Despite what I've said above, all of the things you've said above
are in a variety of different games currently, Neocron, AO, EQ (not
many bags left), AC2, etc.  Nobody is overlooking anything, they're
still just trying to figure out how they'll implement it.

=====
Corpheous
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