[MUD-Dev] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers?

[Derek Licciardi]

From: Chanur Silvarian

> I would assert that the player doesn't need to know any of these
> things and that they are only a hold-over from a medium in which
> there was no way to hide them (pencil and paper).  The only reason
> the numbers exist is because in the beginning these types of games
> were played manually, with dice.  When a player (or GM) has to
> manually roll the numbers then they must know what the numbers
> are, but as soon as there was a mechanism for automatically making
> to hit rolls and damage rolls then there is no more reason for the
> player to know the numbers.

I think this is an invalid assertion.  People need numbers to
quantify their surroundings.  Without the ability to quantify we
would learn little and never evolve as a civilization.  We would
never have made it out of the dark ages.  Quantifying the unknown is
science and even if you hide the numbers completely, players will
make up a science aimed at quantifying your world.

> Most metrics are completely unnecessary for gameplay and end up
> being the source of endless complaints by players, reviews by
> developers, and generally an all around headache.  What I mean is
> that player X sends in logs to prove why player Y is overpowered
> and player Y does the same to prove player X is overpowered,
> everyone gets unhappy... the players are unhappy, the support team
> is unhappy, the devs are unhappy... It is a mess over something
> that the players didn't need to know in the first place and would
> have more fun if they didn't know (because they wouldn't be
> involved in said unhappiness).

The whole underlying idea that the designer gets to choose what I
know and don't know about the virtual world I inhabit is what
strikes me wrong about the statement.  I'd argue the metrics are
completely necessary to a degree.  I like to think we all strive to
quantify and categorize our worlds in some shape or form but without
that hint of doubt or uncertainty the world would become incredibly
boring for the vast majority of us.  In either case, if I can't
quantify it, it's frustrating.  If there's nothing to
learn/experience from it, it's boring.  Either way I log off.

> If the numbers were taken away, all four bartle types would still
> find a way to play... achievers would still try to get more gold,
> better items, and win in combat.  Explorers would explore the
> world, test items and skills to see what they do, and generally
> try to puzzle out all of the numbers that you no longer give them
> for free. Socializers would socialize, and killers can always
> kill.  With no metrics given, there is no more drive for the other
> types to try to keep up with the achievers so long as they have
> enough gold or whatnot to be comfortable.

If the achievers have no way to measure their results then learning
is a classic example of the platformer's love of the learn through
death mechanic.  Such negative reinforcement is good at times, but
the absence of any positive reinforcement (ie improvement numbers
without losing a battle) will make the negative that much more
pronounced.  Achiever types that are not of the crafting/merchant
bent will flee the game before the credit card charge kicks in and
return to giving their money to SOE.

> The major restricting factor to complete removal of numbers from
> these games is simple resistance to change on the part of everyone
> involved; devs, publishers, players, et al.  Nobody even considers
> removing the numbers altogether because of a prevailing "everyone
> else has them, we can't just remove them" mentality.

Players vote time and again with their dollars in not just video
games but board games, card games, weight-loss feats, strength
feats... that quantifying their world is very important.  I don't
believe a game design that hides every number will succeed long
term.  This doesn't mean the opposite either where a game should
show the numbers because as I said above, without the unknown in the
world there is nothing for the achievers to strive for/argue about.
Conflict over class imbalances is actually a good thing in many
cases because it shows involvement.  These same people probably
wouldn't do their algebra homework in HS, yet threaten their cleric
with a .5hp heal per sec reduction and they will churn out doctorate
level statistics as to why you'll ruin the game if you do so.  I'd
argue that that level of care and involvement is a crucial part of
your long term survivability.

> I know that I'm a radical in thinking it, but I believe that
> complete removal of all numbers (except how much item X costs)
> would go a long way to improving immersion in anything calling
> itself an RPG and would stop a lot of the customer complaints
> about how they can't optimize themself to be as good or better
> than someone else.

You're not.  I've had this discussion with nearly every MMO player
that I run into.  The common thread to them all is their deep hatred
of min-maxers to the point that they can't even see that their style
of play is just as valid as anyone else's style of play.

I'll say the same thing about PKers.  I believe a strong 'Killer'
element is essential to a fully functional world.  Socializers are
your excessive spenders and largely responsible for the atmosphere
of the game.  Without them you have silence and your game doesn't
work.  Explorers work to make the elements of the world known to the
rest of the player types and are essential for game information
flow.  Using extremes or design to eliminate one or more of these
types is hazardous to your game and its livelihood.

Kressilac

Ps The trick as a designer is to try and appease as many styles of
play as possible without breaking your vision.
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