[MUD-Dev] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers?

[Sheela Caur'Lir]

*comes out of long time lurker mode*


From: "Derek Licciardi"
> From: Chanur Silvarian

> I think this is an invalid assertion.  People need numbers to
> quantify their surroundings.  Without the ability to quantify we
> would learn little and never evolve as a civilization.  We would
> never have made it out of the dark ages.  Quantifying the unknown
> is science and even if you hide the numbers completely, players
> will make up a science aimed at quantifying your world.

I agree that quantifying is an important element in human nature.
-BUT- Only if it's an important thing for them !

If we take EverQuest as an example, there have been much quantifying
going on, yet I have still to see anyone try to quantify how much
water there is in that game. Or what the highest / lowest altitude
is, even though the numbers are there.

> The whole underlying idea that the designer gets to choose what I
> know and don't know about the virtual world I inhabit is what
> strikes me wrong about the statement.

I'd give a resounding yes in agreement on this one, but for one
detail I don't want them to send so many numbers that I get lost in
them.  Also, I personally tend to agree more with graphical displays
while in battle where I don't have time to pour over numbers.  Each
thing at it's prober time I'd say.

That being said, having the opportunity to delve at something and
inspect it closely, can be very exciting to most players. They just
go about it differently.

  -- A socializer checks the number to see if they can equip it, if
  it's pretty or stylish. (like : important pillows with stars and
  stripes)

  -- An explorer writes endless notes on the details and post them
  on a webpage, claiming the find in their name.

  -- A killer checks the numbers to see how many times he needs to
  strike with it to kill that dragon next door.

  -- Achievers checks the numbers to see if they are "better" then
  the other achiever's numbers on their corresponding items.

Different people, value information differently.

>> I know that I'm a radical in thinking it, but I believe that
>> complete removal of all numbers (except how much item X costs)
>> would go a long way to improving immersion in anything calling
>> itself an RPG and would stop a lot of the customer complaints
>> about how they can't optimize themself to be as good or better
>> than someone else.

> You're not.  I've had this discussion with nearly every MMO player
> that I run into.  The common thread to them all is their deep
> hatred of min-maxers to the point that they can't even see that
> their style of play is just as valid as anyone else's style of
> play.

Much agreement here, with both of you in fact.

Immersion can easily be ruined by too much information.  So, we
should not give them all the numbers, that does not interest
gamers. But the crucial numbers must be available. And those
directly affecting them especially, in fact, those should also be
explained in detail to create less confusion.

Also, I'd say it depends on the target audience.

Lets say we made 3 hypothetical games :

  "Kidsplay Online" - for kids under 9
  "Crack Hunters" - for teenagers and adults
  "World of War" - for adults mainly

  "Kidsplay Online" - You'd really try and keep it simple, with as
  few numbers as possible, since kids are not the best at
  abstracting the numbers they are given, due to lack of experience
  with statistics.  Also, most kids have short attention span, and
  there's not a lot of min-maxers at that age. It would be mostly
  graphical, with a lot of tutorials and explanations of each and
  every stat bar, dot, etc.

  "Crack Hunters" - Would be far more complex, since you'd most
  likely only have one character, a lot of numbers would be
  available if you choose to see them, but also simple graphical
  displays for battle so the screen would not be all cluttered
  up. Much like most MMO's now.  Getting the numbers for something
  should be fast and easy, since it might be an important detail,
  even in battle. EQ-like you might say.

  "World of War" - Which I vision as an online war game where each
  player would have a small company of mercenaries for hire, would
  tend to be far more on the abstract side of representing said
  companies, since you'd have information overload if you displayed
  the numebrs of all units at the same time. It would not be needed
  to get the numbers for each ane every unit fast, since you are
  working with force of mass, rather than a single unit. They are
  expendable. But they should be there for people to develop tactics
  on, on their wepages and such.

As can see from the 3 simplified examples, you need both abstract
visualizations AND numbers in all of them, yet it's not the same
numbers the different games would focus on. Also, the interfaces to
the numbers would vary wildly.

You have a target group - Consider them .. carefully.

> I'll say the same thing about PKers.  I believe a strong 'Killer'
> element is essential to a fully functional world.  Socializers are
> your excessive spenders and largely responsible for the atmosphere
> of the game.  Without them you have silence and your game doesn't
> work.  Explorers work to make the elements of the world known to
> the rest of the player types and are essential for game
> information flow.  Using extremes or design to eliminate one or
> more of these types is hazardous to your game and its livelihood.

> Kressilac

> Ps The trick as a designer is to try and appease as many styles of
> play as possible without breaking your vision.

I agree that all those types should be appeased as well as can be
done, but also think that one have to be careful at how those areas
overlap each other.

Having PK'ers go rampaging trough the socializers preferred areas
might be much fun for the PK's but would really ruin the mood for
the socializer.  Same goes for explorers wanting to explore areas,
only to be PK'ed.  On the other hand, having socializers pick their
preferred meeting spot in the best dungeon for achievers to hunt in,
would be a problem too, since they'd block the area off for the
others.

Trying to define the boundaries from only the mechanical aspect of
the game will give problems, psycological considerations should be
taken into account as well.

Which brings us back to numbers.

Some game mechanics appeal to some, and not a bit to others.
Leaving out numbers entirely will upset some, and not a bit to
others.  Taking them out will definately make a push on the
impression of players, game psycology in the works right there.

*goes back into lurking mode*

---
Jens L. Nielsen

Who don't have a fancy signature.
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