[MUD-Dev] Re: DGN: Why give the players all the numbers?

[Chanur Silvarian]

"Rayzam" <rayzam at travellingbard.com> wrote:
> From: "David Hunt" <david.w.hunt at comcast.net>
>> From: "Rayzam" <rayzam at travellingbard.com>

>>> In fact, you can do both. What we do on Retromud is to give
>>> descriptive scales for many stats [though not player
>>> stats]. Then we have helps that list all the descriptions in
>>> order. Players can then rank them, assign numbers to them, use
>>> any sort of math they want. But when it first hits them, it is
>>> in descriptive words.

>> A better alternative is to provide both with a means for the
>> player to choose. While descriptive scales alone are useful for
>> immersion, they hide the underlying game mechanics. It has been
>> pointed out repeatedly that players will eventually reverse
>> engineer at least a reasonable approximation of the game.

> That's pretty much what I've been saying: at some point they'll be
> converted to numbers anyways. Why not just give the players the
> ordered scale of descriptions. That way they don't have to go to
> the effort. Glad to hear you agree with me :) I consider a
> descriptive scale that is used, but also listed for the players is
> the same as giving them both methods. I suppose one could code a
> flag that either gives the description or the numbers.

> But as I also was saying, there's an advantage to also putting
> them in descriptions, in terms of immersion, or roleplaying. Words
> can be taken that way, or converted to numbers, but it's harder to
> immersively convert numbers to descriptions.

> And my final point, reiterated, was that some stats should be
> given in numbers: such as player stats or exp. The rule here is
> that any thing that tracks player advancement, i.e. all the pieces
> of cheese, need to be visible to the players, or else the stepsize
> of the descriptions has to be larger than the advancement
> increments, or else the players won't see or feel that they are
> advancing.

There are two parts to this, the first is "why?", why do you need to
give the stats and/or experience to the player?  They don't in most
first person shooters.  In chess, though the rules are clearly
defined and the winner is easily identifiable there is no moving
experience bar showing me how much more I must study/play to beat my
opponent.  I know HOW to get to the point that I can beat them, and
the HOW must be given.  In the case of an FPS I need to get the
better weapons, armor, and improve my playing skill.  In the case of
chess I must study and play more to improve my skill.  In the case
of an MMORPG the player needs to be given the "HOW", but they don't
necessarily need to know how far they have to go for that next piece
of cheese.

The second part of this is the definition of "advancement" or
"achievement".  If the only formula for "achievement" is the
almighty experience point then perhaps you are correct.  I maintain
that there are MANY more ways to measure achievement than experience
points.  In fact, many are already used in the games of today even
where the almighty experience point is in effect.  Players measure
all manner of achievements, all of which are more "in character"
than some nebulas experient point measurement.  Players compare the
gold in their bank accounts, players compare how many people they've
killed, players compare how big a monster they have killed, players
compare how nice a weapon they can craft, etc., etc., etc.  So long
as these "carrots" or "pieces of cheese" are given out as they
should be then there is no reason at all to display experience
points, levels, or any of the other purely mechanical numbers used
to derive the game-state of a character.

The fact that the players will convert them to numbers eventually is
inconsequential.  In fact the whole conversion process opens up
another form of gameplay that will entertain certain player types
for days/weeks at a time.  It is simply another "achievement" to be
accomplished... to be the first to post a definitive list of
strength requirements for various weapons.  Removal of the display
does not limit the gameplay in any manner but expands it.  It is
also simpler to develop since you don't have to worry about creating
some nice user interface to display these mechanics.

So long as players know the "HOW", such as to use a certain weapon
they need more strength and to increase strength they must work out,
then gameplay is not degraded.  They don't need a display showing
that they have 27 strength and that they need 35 strength, as you
all have said they'll figure that out on their own.

I still maintain that the great untapped market of players believes
that these games are too complex and the main reason for this belief
is that all of these numbers are thrown at them in the interface.
They believe that they need to know what all of these numbers mean
in great detail before they can even play when the truth of the
matter is that the numbers are generally irrelevant to
"playability".

Yes, certain numbers must be given.  The rule of thumb should be
"can the character (not player) count it?"  They can count the gold
in their bank.  They can count the number of rocks in their pack
(and thereby calculate strength if they wish, but the strength
should not be displayed).  They can count the number of friends that
they have.  They can count the units of fuel required to power a
machine for a day.  You get the idea.  You could state the rule
conversly as "if we don't count it in real life, it shouldn't be
displayed in the game".

Stepped descriptions are great.  We use them in real life for lots
of things.  An example of a real-life experience measure is an exam
in school; you pass or fail but also get stepped grades.  You get a
specific score as well, but that is an irrelevant number because it
can change slightly based on whether or not you were feeling well
when you took the exam, whether or not you were hungry, and all
other manner of outside factors.  The measure is a stepped
description; A, B, C, D, F.  Same goes for strength, on any given
date and time the actually amount of weight that you can lift varies
slightly, but you can get a stepped measure that approximates you
pretty well in general without saying that at this moment in time I
can lift 187lbs, 13.2oz.  Simply stating that you press 185 or 190
is quite enough.

I don't agree that the ranges for each description need to be given
to the players because, again, we all know that they will figure it
out themselves.  It seems to me that giving the information to them
restricts explorers and achievers.  Getting rid of these purely
mechanical numbers does not in any way hinder any of the four bartle
types from persuing their own goals, it simply changes the
terminology that they will use in-game to refer to them.  It is
probably my own purist role-play personality but I'd much rather
hear players trying to sell a "very sharp broadsword" than a
"13.5dps broadsword".  <shrug>
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