[list] Re: [MUD-Dev] Re: DGN: Why give the players all the numbers?

[Marian Griffith]

On Wed 17 Sep, Scion Altera wrote:
> Tuesday, September 16, 2003, 6:21:41 PM, Rayzam wrote:

>> That's pretty much what I've been saying: at some point they'll
>> be converted to numbers anyways. Why not just give the players
>> the ordered scale of descriptions. That way they don't have to go
>> to the effort.

> The point here is measureability. Some things in real life are
> measureable and we have concrete numbers for them. I can easily
> find out how many pounds my knife weighs, or how long it is. I can
> also find out the tensile strength of the metal the blade is made
> out of.  Off the top of my head, I don't know a unit of measure
> for exactly how sharp it is, but there probably is one.

> So in a hypothetical stereotypical fantasy setting, how would
> people compare swords? The longer of two swords might weigh the
> same as 40 gold pieces. The shorter might only weigh the same as
> 32 gold pieces.  The longer might be as long as my leg, while the
> shorter is as long as my friend's arm. How sharp are they? Well
> the long one can easily cut through a goblin's skull in one
> strike, while the shorter one takes a few whacks to do the job.

If you want to be that realistic then things are a *lot* more fuzzy
than that. Sharpness, for one, only matters when you are up against
leather armour, and even then only to a degree.  Reach, weight and
shape of the sword are not what determine the *quality* of a sword,
but what fighting style it is good for.  E.g. A short sword similar
to what the romans used is perfect for infantry fighting in tight
formation. It would be suicidal to use that sword in a duel against
a longsword. On the other hand, trying to use a longsword in
formation is equally suicidal. Fighting on horseback?  You might
want to consider a scimitar over a long or bastard sword, as it
reduces the chance you cut into your own horse. Generally, the
heavier sword is better for dealing heavy blows even through armour,
but it comes at a price. You need to be able to swing it widely to
get the most effect (speed) out of it.  In cramped conditions you do
not have that kind of space.  If you are being rushed a two-handed
sword that can be swung overhead might save your life, but against
an agile fighter with a light longsword you stand a good chance
ending up dead, since it is too slow to fence with (even if you
manage to connect with the longsword you might shatter it with your
heavy blade) Even a dagger is just as deadly as that heavy claymore
if used in the right circumstances and way, and I am not even trying
to compare other weapon types like axe, mace or lance.

Problem is that the traditional way of handling combat is flawed in
this respect. Real combat is not about trading blows until your hit
points were exhausted. Frequently the first blow that fully
connected was lethal, or at least disabling.  Thirty pound of edged
steel connecting solidly with a helm caved in not only that helm but
also the skull underneath it. Or it would break an arm, a leg or
several ribs.  That is why those immense two handed swords were so
feared.  They would cut down pretty much anything once they got
swung with enough speed. However they got only few strokes in and an
agile and lucky fighter could dart in and stab while the sword was
being pulled back from the left or right for another swing.

For the most part, fighting with those heavy long swords was slow,
but it is difficult to study it properly as it is virtually
impossible to avoid serious injuries once you start using swords
that are properly weighted.  No amount of padding can prevent you
from breaking an arm if you hit it with a 20 pound iron bar.

I also have no idea how to capture this in a game, only that to do
it properly it should focus on deflection and evasion rather than on
meeting blows head on. Once a blow hits the fight is over. Under
such a system the 'quality' of the sword is highly subjective and
depending first of all on the style of fighting.  Also swords would
be pretty much interchangeable, with the better once having a better
balance and more durable (i.e. flexible so it can absorb more blows
against it) metal.  Armour would be of less importance as it would
protect against glancing blows and some light weapons (if no joint
openings could be found), and it would slow down and wear out the
wearer that much quicker.

> In terms of game mechanics, what does this example mean? The game
> could give the player the numbers for the weight, and length of
> the swords. It could tell them that the swords are both made of
> steel.  However, the game might not tell them the value of the
> "sharpness" attribute of the swords beyond saying that one is
> "very sharp" and the other is "dull" because sharpness is not
> measureable to a very granular level.

> Perhaps a game could hide all the unknown numbers from the player
> until they are measured. Only numbers that can be measured can be
> discovered. A player with a mystical, one of a kind tool for
> measuring the damage roll of an item could make a fortune in that
> economy... the analogy being that I don't know the horsepower of
> your car until I hitch it up to a bunch of horses and play a
> little tug-of-war. I wonder if this could be used to build a
> 'scientist' profession in a game.

The real question is, what would the *player* gain from knowing the
numbers, and would would they lose from witholding that information?

If you decide to present the numbers, then present the numbers that
the player needs. If you withold them, then do so completely. In the
end it is a choice on the part of the game designer to help shape
the type of game and gameplay.


Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...

Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
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