[MUD-Dev] DGN: Why give the players all the numbers?

[Lee Sheldon]

>From Matt Mihaly:
> From Daniel Harmon:

>> Mana regeneration rate is hidden in EQ, but it didn't take long
>> for people to turn a packet sniffer on it and work it out, same
>> for vaious hidden armor protection caps etc. It all got worked
>> out, and in fairly fast order. Of course all these things are
>> good imho, it keeps the devs honest and sometimes unearths
>> discrepancies between how the devs think they've implemented it,
>> and how its actually working.

> Yeah, but there are thousands of muds out there and a handful of
> EQ's.  I'm not willing to make universal rules based on the
> experience of a handful of games.

I've been reading this thread with interest, and should go on record
as saying I think displaying the numbers is one of the worst
anti-immersive traditions we've blindly copied from D&D. I've been
saying for years (7 now?) in my tutorials that if you want immersion
in your game, bury the numbers. (By the same token, if you don't
care about immersion, then by all means trot them out and shine a
spotlight on them!)

Most of the posts here against hiding numbers keep saying "players"
will uncover the numbers anyway... These detectives are also refered
to as "determined players" and "people." But I see no statistical
evidence presented as to how many players or people are represented
by these statements. My anecdotal evidence suggests that the number
is trivial in the large games. Is this one of those urban legends
disguised as truth?  Are we guilty of the same thing players in the
whine forums are when they bleat, "Everyone is leaving the game!"
"Corgi Handlers are overpowered, nerf 'em!"?

And the fact that the numbers may be gleaned is immaterial whether
through reverse engineering or visiting a website. The real problem,
as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, is the narrow focus
on traditional advancement systems that shove the numbers in our
faces, and therefore encourage players to play them instead of
living in the world.

  (Sidebar: Fans of sports who can site reams of statistics are not
  "immersed" in those sports. They are merely measuring the true
  players while they observe from the sidelines. Nobody observes
  from the sidelines in our worlds. That's the whole point. It is
  the players who are immersed in sports, and they also of course
  are very aware of statistics as a measurement of their
  achievement. That's how the game infrastructure is -designed-
  after all. However even for them the numbers aren't
  everything. Being asked to front for a charity is a measure of
  achievement sports figures enjoy. Being a spokesperson for
  Gatorade. Obtaining articles of conspicuous consumption like a
  Hummer of Manliness +3 measure their success.)

It always amazes me that when we provide the explicit numbers, we
then seem sad that players are grinding instead of enjoying all the
other things our worlds provide. It's mainly because the numbers are
a tangible measurement whereas socializers are given "tools,"
explorers are given blank maps, role players are given "contexts"
(if they're lucky) etc. However much we might want to boast that
some games are not only about leveling, these other activities are
still red-haired stepchildren because there are no tangible
measureable rewards the games track as voraciously as they do combat
or crafting XP. Our punishment for not balancing measurement systems
is not only a slap in the face of immersion, but discontent among
players who max out and then are told that wasn't how they were
supposed to play the game. Why didn't they stop to smell the roses
along the way? Because they got no XP for it.

Can we add numerical values to those aspects of the design less
focussed on achievement? (You smell the roses and gain 40 points to
Olfactory Sensitivity!) Do we want to? I don't think so. The logical
conclusion - IF immersion is a goal - is to balance the experiences
by dropping the explicit numbers from those activities that
currently track them with such zeal.

Lee
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