[MUD-Dev] Level Grind - alternative

[cruise]

I'm going to be reply to two emails in one here -

Brendan O'Brien wrote:

> Even though your horse is very inferior at the start, you can race
> competitively from very early on.  I'd say it took me two or three
> races to get the knack of how to race him properly (whip use is
> the main thing you have control over), and I would consistently be
> in the top 3-5 finishers.  It was a bit longer before I felt he
> could really have a shot at winning one (maybe 9 or 10 races?),
> but fighting for third or fourth place was actually a lot of fun.

That's what I thought. How many character-development based games
get you up to a competitive level in two to three "competitions" (be
they racing, fighting, whatever)? Or at least something that /feels/
competitive.

Corey Cauble wrote:

>   1: Has anyone considered having multiple paths for game play?
>   One catered to the hardcore gamer and another for the more
>   casual?

>   Each could have benefits for the type of game play they like and
>   have disadvantages that would benefit the other type of
>   play. This would allow you to choose a hardcore gamer character
>   type that would start out at a low "level" and have the
>   advantage of better "stats" and player control,
>   i.e. modifications of player attributes. While the casual gamer
>   would have a "pre-made" or auto generated character that starts
>   out at a higher level and gets basic equipment. This character
>   has little or no control of its attributes and can add generic
>   improvements at "level up".

Some games have offered various character creation options -
Morrowind gave you the choice of pre-built class, multiple choice
questions, or custom designed. Easy, medium, complex, depending on
your familiarity with these sort of systems.  The suggestion of
starting the more generic, easier character with a higher level
boost does tie in nicely with the "quickstart" approach
above. Either spend the time guiding your character through training
to really tailor the abilities, or accept an off-the-shelf model
that is immediately capable.

Brendan O'Brien wrote:

> When I did finally win the race, it was a bit of a surprise, as
> there were several horses in the race who were still much better
> than mine on paper.  Of course, I believe that should be possible
> in any game, as skill and luck should be more important than
> simple stats on paper.  I'd rather not know the exact outcome of
> every challenge before it even starts.  ;)

Variabilty adds a lot of the fun to competition. Farming lower-level
mobs is monotonous not just because of how often you do it, but
because of the zero-risk involved. If all opponents are more or less
the same abilities then the risk is never removed, and combat
retains it's tension.

> I tend to agree with you here, but I would not want to be faced
> with the prospect of continuously facing the grind again every
> time my character got older.  I certainly didn't mean to say that
> this is the only solution for replacing the grind.  It's more a
> case where I feel this type of character creation leads itself
> very naturally to creating a nice alternative to your traditional
> treadmills.  It also appeals much more directly to players (such
> as my wife) who really don't want to be bothered by the hack n'
> slash mentality of most games today.

Certainly, I'm just trying to keep distinct thoughts distinct, to
keep cross-purposes and confusion to a minimum :P

> Well, it's offline training in a sense, but also a bit different.
> It's more of a case where characters develop naturally as they get
> older; you just give them a push in a certain direction.  Ideally
> I would have it so that new characters are born with certain
> hidden statistics which would help define how their abilities will
> grow over time.  Some may be geniousses, others could be
> atheletes, some would be average all around, and others could be
> fat lazy and stupid.  The parents will affect the likelihood of
> having a certain type of child, but blind luck would help keep
> things more interesting.  While two olympic-style athletic parents
> would be much more likely to have athletic children, there's
> always that chance the barmaid and the rogue could produce an even
> more talented offspring.

Like the "simple" character development touched on by Corey,
perhaps? This would have to be carefully tweaked - I remember
getting immensely frustrated with FFVII trying to breed that damn
golden chocobo and not being able to find the parents I needed :P
Repeated "useless" offspring could get irritating - replacing a
level grind with a breeding grind. Allowing more in depth control
for those who really want it, as discussed above, may help to
alleviate that. Doesn't have to be /too/ in depth, just increases
the likelihood of getting the child you wanted.

<snip long discussion of schooling sytem>

This definately fits in with the casual gamer's character creation
idea. A child is born, you pick the schools it goes to, and X amount
of time later you have a character to play. For the power-gamer, an
option to be able to manually experience/control the training
process would no doubt be appreaciated. The trouble with min/maxing
in other games is it doesn't take any additional time or effort to
do, aside from reading some webpages. You make the same decisions,
and go through the same processes as anyone else. If additional
skill and time was needed to produce that finely honed piece of
"perfection", then players might feel them a little more balanced.

> Ahh, short time periods.  Wouldn't it be great if more games would
> let you actually log in and have fun with only a half hour or so
> to play the game?  I'm beginning to think I may need to try out
> CoH, even though superheroes really aren't my thing.  ;)

Indeed. Though it's been much criticised for the level grind, it
does do two things very well that make this a non-issue for me: a)
quick to play. 15mins is a perfectly acceptable amount of time to
play through a mission and fee lyou've achieved something. b) The
core combat is /fun/. Everything that dilutes or hinders that fun
has been removed or minimised. And player skill does make a
difference.

> Yeah, that's very much how I would envision it to go.  I would
> allow the characters to court npc's as spouses as well, but I
> expect most would be more likely to mix families with other
> players in order to find the qualities they are looking for.  I
> expect many would enjoy playing the game as a socializer building
> up their family, without even bothering with the combat /
> adventuring side of things.  I never played the Sims myself, but
> I'd have to think this type of system could appeal much more to
> that type of audience.  My original goal was to try to find a game
> that I (as a former power-gamer, now casual gamer) could enjoy
> just as much as my wife (less competitive socializer).

> Head to head, a casual gamer's character should have just as much
> chance to win as a power gamer's, but the power gamer's family
> will still gain fame and wealth at a much faster rate.  I think
> both sides could live with that.  :)

Seems a fair trade off - the primary achievements in game can be
realised by anyone who plays - but secondary achievments are there
for the powergamers. That strikes me as a good balance.

> I would love to spend hours discussiong ways to improve the way
> combat is handled in these games, but this post is long enough
> already.  At least I'm not the only one who wants more epic and
> fewer trivial fights.  :)

Hey, that's what new threads are for :P

>>It seems the underlying principles here are: drastically speed up
>>initial ability gain, provide advancement for skill-based
>>accomplishment and not time-sinks, and de-couple character
>>abilities from time spent online.

> Yeah, I think you have the general ideas down pretty well.  I
> appreciate the commentary.  :)

No problem. It's something I've been pondering myself for a while
now too.

--
[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org ]
   "quantam sufficit"
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