[MUD-Dev] Separating newbies and oldbies

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad]

HRose <hrose at tiscali.it> writes:
> Ola wrote:

>> Hypothesis: Oldbies ruin the game for the newbies.

> I think this depends mostly on the design. Oldbies ganking newbies

Well, obviously. You can have a reset based PvP MUD with no player
skills and nothing to discover...

> delve more about how to make them play together. And, imho, this
> ties with the other "casual players vs rich time crowd".

It is related, yes. Not the same problem though. You can have
designs that allow casual players to keep up and which slow down the
time-rich. This doesn't burn content as the casual player is already
"eating" content at a proper pace. Metaphor: the time-rich spend
time breaking down the barriers and the casual players tag along and
participate in the event.

Newbies can never keep up. And if they do, they by-pass content.

>> - Oldbie drags newbie around the world. Burning discovery
>> potential.

> Similar to power level problems.

Not really. Why do you think so? Twinked out power levelling across
the level-range is something you choose to allow by design.

>>   - Oldbie chats on private channels. Newbie experience a silent
>>   world.

> This goes exactly where I place the problem. these different
> players should have incentive to play *together*. When it happens
> they'll also communicate.

Not necessarily... For oldbies there is no obvious relation between
communicating and playing together. Only newbies need high levels of
communication to play.

Anyway, the problem isn't that oldbies don't communicate with
newbies. The problem is that oldbies define the world for the
newbies when they do communicate.

>> Main problem: How do you keep oldbies out of the way?

> My approach is completely different: How you make them play
> together?

Err... Yes, but that is what you have to deal with if you cannot
keep the oldbies out of the way. And it doesn't solve the core
problems.

> Old players are a resource for every game.

Again, yes... SOME are. In what ways to do you see old players as a
resource?

>>From what I can tell the oldbies that are valuable assets also were
valuable assets as newbies. I.e. it is the person's attitude that
matters, not for how long he has been in the game. What makes
oldbies seem more important is most likely that they have been able
to build up a reputation for themselves.

Or in a few cases, that they have run out of content and are bored
with the game itself, which is a horrible design goal... Not sure
how the distribution for this is either, but the argument against
this being the most widespread is: if you care more about people
than gameplay then you will level slower.

> DAoC suffered a lot the idea of putting the /level 20 command in
> the game exactly because newbies finished between other newbies
> and oldbies between other oldbies.

I don't know what this command does.

> not damaging. In WoW this is actually encouraged with exploitable
> mechanics and public chat channels, I help a lot newbies and they
> always thank me.

Of course they thank you... You help them to "cheat" in a legal
way. Now they are in debt to you, a debt they never can pay back
fully...

And again, newbies are more likely to be helpful than oldbies. When
oldbies help, they help too much, thus spoiling the fun. Or rather:
the fun is short lived.

> Friendships are also built this way.

Yes, but it creates asymmetrical friendships.

Newbies help newbies too and you get more symmetrical
friendships. Nothing to do with oldbies vs newbies.

> I really don't understand how you managed to consider this a bad
> aspect because the reasons you provide above are weak.

Uhm... Ruining the newbie experience is a weak reason? Do you prefer
playing a game where over 3/4 of the players are out of your league
and 1/4 most likely will remain so forever? I wouldn't even consider
to start playing EQ now.

What is more fun in the long run, to most people:

  1. Have an oldbie play a multiuser quest for you, or worse tell
  you that it isn't worth doing because he can give you a better
  item as a gift.

  2. Play solo all the time.

  3. Play a multiuser quest with a peer and share your discoveries
  with someone who appreciate it.

>> Sub problem: How to get rid of structures that tie oldbies to
>> newbies?

> Yeah, that's exactly what shouldn't happen. How to make them
> stronger?

This only works for the non-content aspect of the game... Unless you
make guild raids the main activity, of course.

--
Ola - http://folk.uio.no/olag/
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