[MUD-Dev] SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurttheMMOcommunity?

[Matt Mihaly]

Jaycen Rigger wrote:

> I do indeed have a great deal of experience with customer service
> and these games.  I've been a Game Master/Admin on 3 different
> servers over the last 7 years.  My experience might not be as vast
> as yours (you didn't give a number or time), and I didn't get paid
> for it (which no doubt makes you special), but I do have
> experience.  I suppose since I am doing it out of the love of the
> game, and not for cash, then my attitude is different than yours
> is.  Go figure.

That's great. Were you on a game that sold virtual items or was able
to detect the transfer of them, I assume? In other words, I'm
assuming the only reason you're bringing up your experience in this
respect is that the games you were an admin on gave you some insight
into the difference between players with time and players with
money.

>> Cheating is playing against the rules. Once a practice isn't
>> against the rules, it's not cheating. Guess what? You don't set
>> the rules. The developer/publisher does.

> That's where you are so very wrong.  If you're getting paid for
> what you do, then you have made a collosal mis-judgement.  Your
> CUSTOMERS decide what is cheating.  Oh sure, YOU could decide, but
> then you'd go out of business, eventually.

I'm not wrong. Cheating is defined by the developer. The customers
don't agree on anything at all.

>> A fascist state. Well, if we were talking about states, that
>> might make sense. But since we're talking about games, let's drop
>> the hyperbole and stop pretending SOE announced they're going to
>> steal your children and sell them to gypsies shall we?

> In fact, Matt, we are talking about states.  The virtual world is
> a community, a state.  If you don't get that, and if you don't get
> that political ideals apply to those communities, you might be in
> the wrong business.  >

I don't think you understand the concept of a state if you believe
community = state. A good layman's definition comes from Webster's:

  1. A sovereign political community organized under a distinct
  government recognized and conformed to by the people as supreme,
  and having jurisdiction over a given territory; a nation.

  2. One of a number of political communities or bodies politic
  united to form one sovereign state; specifically, one of the
  United States.

#2 obviously doesn't apply.

#1 also clearly doesn't apply. In absolutely no sense are virtual
worlds sovereign, supreme, or have any jurisdiction at all over any
territory.  (Databases not constituting territory.)

>> It does? How interesting. I played WoW and started with 5 gold,
>> courtesy of a rl resource (friend) who twinked me out. Did
>> everyone start out with this out-of-game resource (higher level
>> friends). I guess you must be one of these people who advocates
>> banning people from interacting with rl friends, since such
>> interaction creates unequal footings between players?

> Yes, it does, Matt.  No, if you did something in-game, then you
> don't fall under my category for cheating.  Maybe I'm just not
> communicating myself clearly.

All transfer of in-game resources happen in-game. What's cheating in
your view then? My friend gave me the gold for an out-of-game
reason, precisely the same as someone would give me gold for giving
them money out of game.

> Well, hubris is pride or arrogance.  I think that all of us define
> cheating.  I don't hold the franchise on defining cheating, but I
> do get a say in it.

Sorry, but you don't.

--matt
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