[MUD-Dev2] [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system]

[cruise]

Thus spake Lachek Butalek...
> On 3/5/07, cruise <cruise at casual-tempest.net> wrote:
>> We'll have to disagree on that point. If I'm not enjoying it, it's no
>> longer a game.
> 
> That's a very narrow definition of a game. I hope I'm not taking your
> words out of context here, but doesn't that mean that, to you,
> something you do not enjoy ceases to be a game despite someone else
> enjoying it? What about if you're temporarily disenchanted with the
> game for whatever reason, does it then lose its game nature?

Yes, speaking entirely personally.

This is moving a little away from where I intended that comment - I did 
admittedly phrase it rather badly. Sean mentioned that games did not 
have to be for entertainment, and to my mind a game that is /not 
intended to entertain/ is not really a game. I didn't make my previous 
statement in the context of a specific play session, or a certain 
in-game activity.

With that said (snipping examples):

> Losing in a game isn't "fun" or "enjoyable", but is a required facet
> of the game to ensure the remainder is enjoyable. Both single-player
> and MMORPGs has of late been far too lenient in allowing the player to
> succeed at anything they do, and frankly it turns the game "on rails"
> and boring.

ie. no longer fun, yes? So the short-term "unfun" bits actually 
contribute to long-term enjoyment. And it's on the long-term, overall 
"average experience" scale that I was making my original comment.

> Terra Nova had a decent commentary on this here:
> http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/02/oh_tragedy.html

<snip>

> All these have obvious "game" like qualities, in terms of utilizing
> cognitive processes and pattern recognition to guide your manipulation
> of a system to further an end beneficial to yourself. Yet they are
> rarely, if ever, enjoyable to most sane individuals.

"Game-ness" is in the eye of the player. Which is why we always end up 
having these long threads as to what constitues a game, since everyone's 
idea of a game is different.