[MUD-Dev2] [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point...

[cruise]

Thus spake Caliban Darklock...
> You kill monster X and you get an achievement, and now you never kill
> monster X again. Instead you kill monster Y and you get an
> achievement.
> 
> You deliver item A to person B and you get an achievement, and now you
> never do that again. Instead you deliver item C to person D and you
> get an achievement.
> 
> You escort NPC 1 to location 2 and you get an achievment, and now you
> never do that again. Instead you escort NPC 3 to location 4 and you
> get an achievement.
> 
> Pretty soon, you get "This monster is just like the last one, only
> orange!" syndrome. Internally, the achievement only happens once. To
> the player, however, each of these scenarios is still the same one
> over and over. Every time you deliver an item to someone, it's the
> same damn quest. The player doesn't say "thank God I'm delivering
> different items to different people!", he says "WTF, am I paying
> $14.95 a month to run a damn delivery service?"

Which of course is sooooo different from how the the current XP system 
functions...

I don't know the numbers for other games, but I know for CoH the higher 
levels require you to kill several thousand enemies for enough xp to 
ding. The most this system would require for a level is 50. If the 
repetativeness of this system is a turn off, the problem is 
exponentially worse for the standard XP/levelling system.

>> In the classic XP, you kill a level 1 mob, you get xp. You kill a
>> second level 1 mob, you get xp. You kill enough level 1 mobs, you get
>> to level 50.
> 
> Whereas in your system, if it's properly balanced such that the
> average player with a level X character is challenged just enough by a
> level X task, level 50 is only gained with the accomplishment of 6275
> tasks.
> 
> Can you even THINK of 6275 tasks? If it takes one hour for a designer
> to build one (HAHAHAHAHA... sorry), that's three years. What's the
> industry average? Ten hours? Twenty? How many designers are you going
> to have? How much TIME do you have?
> 
> Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics.

To be fair, he original idea did actually mention this as an issue. It 
is somewhat mitigated that killing a creature counts as one of those 
tasks - I can't imagine it would be too hard to fill at least half of a 
level's requirements with creatures if you wanted too. Exploring a new 
area counts, too - most current MMOG's have very substantial worlds that 
would eat into that massive total.

?Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They 
may be summed up by the phrases: 1- It's completely impossible. 2- It's 
possible, but it's not worth doing. 3- I said it was a good idea all 
along.? - Arthur C. Clarke

:P

>> In the achievement system, you kill a level 1 mob, you prove you can
>> kill a level 1 mob. You kill another level 1 mob, you haven't proved
>> anything you didn't before.
> 
> In a world where the most expensive and difficult part of your
> development cycle is the production of enough content to keep your
> players happy, actively forbidding your players to enjoy the same
> content repeatedly is pretty retarded.

How on earth are you "forbidding" players from enjoying the same 
content? It's still just as enjoyable as it was before, unless the only 
"enjoyment" was the reward - in which case your game is pretty damn 
sucky anyway, and you have bigger problems than the advancement model.

> But the problem is a nail. Which is precisely why people are saying
> GET A HAMMER, NOT AN UMBRELLA. We're not saying that the system you
> have is a hammer. We're saying that you're trying to drive a nail, and
> your tool is not good for driving nails.

You're telling us the problem is a nail. We're trying to explain it's not :P

> On 9/14/07, Michael Chui <saraid at u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> Rewards do not an achievement make.
> 
> I never said they did. I said this system is no different than an XP
> system, which is also an achievement system.

Out of curiousity then, what would a "reward system" look like? Since to 
me an XP system fits that box nicely.