[DGD] Where did all the players go?

[Blain]

Let's make a single-player game where you walk around a house and down into
caves, solving puzzles, avoiding lurking creatures that'll eat you in one
round by caring a light source. We can call it Dwork.

On Dec 12, 2017 12:49, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interestingly enough I was hoping that the cloud-server thing (which
> might have been dworkin's early, lwo-inventory using mud) was going to
> be part of this sort of packaged deal.
>
> As the architect of DGD itself being the designer I think that a few
> of the ideas in that project (presently in the git history and/or
> cited on the ML in teh past) are probably meritful.
>
> I noticed something in there for example about continuations.
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Blain <blain20 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So... when do we begin making Dowrkin MUD?  We'll need to showcase our
> > blossoming package distro mudlib, after all.
> >
> > On Dec 12, 2017 11:31, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:56 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:15:38 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
> >>> I was informed by a public post from ChrisA that one of the side
> >>> effects of a persistent world was a load of junk left behind in
> >>> Marrach, including but not limited to heaps of scrolls, and piles of
> >>> food items that should long since have decayed.
> >>
> >> Yes, this was why I mentioned how a persistent world more or less
> requires
> >> enforced decay of things. I made some pretty extensive design for truely
> > huge
> >> game world with 'managed persistence' where things left alone may decay
> or
> >> otherwise get returned to the 'resource pool'. Managed in that some
> items
> >> might take pretty much forever, others will take a short time.
> >
> > One of the comments found on phantasmal's website talked about a
> > world's "metabolism", and that comment in turn was probably found on
> > this very list in the past.  Noah often pulled notes like that when he
> > was maintainer of the phantasmal site.
> >
> >> As the core for this game world would be generated from a map (either
> >> generated or a 'real' map provided as a file), all the persistence is
> > based on
> >> layers on top of the generated world, where each layer has a different
> > rate of
> >> decay.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> One of the features they could have used DGD for was a persistnet
> >>> world...and they wound up implementing it with a hierarchial
> >>> save_object/load_object structure, plus a few daemons to pick up on
> >>> changed .c files.  Was actually pretty amazing to see how they'd
> >>> worked around missing what DGD has.
> >>
> >> Been there, done that, including the replacing of outdated objects and
> > clones,
> >> transfering internal state (and while at it, saving and reloading
> internal
> >> state over reboots). It can be done, but quickly becomes a mess.
> >
> > Yes, which is why I praise DGD for doing it the easy way.
> >
> >> Yet, when all a game needs is player inventories persisting between
> > sessions
> >> and over reboots, its often what lpmuds do. And while I really like the
> > idea
> >> of a persistent world, many classic muds don't seem to need one, and for
> >> example due to your first comment, it might not even be desirable (WOTF
> > still
> >> needs work on dealing with random junk lying around)
> >
> > In this game, being able to plant a tree and watch it grow over a
> > month of RL time was immensely satisfying...and even got our druid
> > community lecturing the other PCs about johnny appleseeding
> >
> >
> >>> ...and as a wizard I had not succeeded in avoiding what seems to have
> >>> become an in-joke on their mud.  That of accidentally nuking every
> >>> tree in the world.  Seems to have turned into a rite of passage for
> >>> wizards.
> >
> >> Been there, done that... :-)
> >
> >> Its a risk inherent to most recomile and replace setups. I did at some
> > point
> >> manage to protect my own implementation from this, but.. that was after
> it
> >> having gone wrong more than a few times.
> >
> > Actually this had nothing to do with recompiling or replacing.  It was
> > a fat-fingered command at the wizard prompt. :P
> >
> >> Bart.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 7:24 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
> >>> > For me, it has taken quite some time to wrap my head around the
> > concept and
> >>> > implications of persistence. The first thing to realize is there
> being
> > 2
> >>> > different kinds of persistence involved.
> >>> >
> >>> > - persistent server
> >>> > - persistent world
> >>> >
> >>> > You need the first to build the second, but the fir5st does not imply
> > the
> >>> > second, there is value in having a persistent server without a
> > persistent
> >>> > world in that you can do updates to the mud without needing
> 'reboots'.
> >>> >
> >>> > With regards to persistent worlds, from a classic lpmud point of
> view,
> > this is
> >>> > typically about 'preserving inventories 'between sessions, and
> > possibly across
> >>> > reboots.
> >>> >
> >>> > While those can be useful if not desirable features, this is really
> > not what a
> >>> > persistent world is about. On a mud implementing a persistent world,
> > you could
> >>> > drop something on some out of the way location, and given nobody
> walks
> > by and
> >>> > picks it up, it will still be there 10 years from now. Not needed for
> > every
> >>> > game, actuall not even desirable for some games. But for roleplaying
> > games,
> >>> > this can be quite valuable. For games which let players build their
> > own world,
> >>> > this is highly desirable. AT any rate, a persistent world also more
> or
> > less
> >>> > requires dealing with 'enforced' decay of things, ie, the house a
> > player built
> >>> > should, unless maintained, over time become a ruin, and in due time,
> > 'nature'
> >>> > should take it back and return the location to its original shape.
> >>> >
> >>> > This requires being able to maintain the state of every object
> > potentially for
> >>> > many years.
> >>> >
> >>> > Bart
> >>> >
> >>> > On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:33:08 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
> >>> >> I probably don't have to remind everyone of Castle Marrach and
> >>> >> company taking advantage of persistence and runtime upgrading.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I still have high praise for Skotos Tech for those...and I wasn't
> >>> >> kidding when I've often said in the past that they've inspired
> others.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Second Contract for one
> >>> >>
> >>> >> And for antoher, Noah Gibb's very own Phantasmal which I only
> >>> >> inherited when he was overwhelmed by real life.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Kotaka's inspiration goes without saying.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 3:29 AM, Felix A. Croes <felix at dworkin.nl>
> > wrote:
> >>> >> > bart at wotf.org wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>[...]
> >>> >> >> In all fairness, unless you have been running a persistent mud
> for
> > quite a
> >>> >> >> while, or done live database conversions on a running system or
> > such, its
> >>> > very
> >>> >> >> difficult to realize what really needs to happen.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Sometimes new ideas are simply not accepted.  DGD has had
> > persistance and
> >>> >> > runtime upgrading for more than 20 years now.  This doesn't fit
> > into the
> >>> >> > LPmud view, and probably never will.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Regards,
> >>> >> > Felix Croes
> >>> >> > ____________________________________________
> >>> >> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> >> ____________________________________________
> >>> >> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrobjective/
> >>> > http://www.om-d.org/
> >>> >
> >>> > ____________________________________________
> >>> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>> ____________________________________________
> >>> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrobjective/
> >> http://www.om-d.org/
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________
> >> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> > ____________________________________________
> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
> > ____________________________________________
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> ____________________________________________
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