[DGD] Where did all the players go?

Wed Dec 13 00:06:57 CET 2017

Believe it or not I've actually considered using character-mode to do just that.

ncurses style optimizations could be coded into the LPC side before
the raw bytes are sent out...or a special client on the user side.

As it is Kotaka already has a "character-pixel" framebuffer
abstraction that renders a stack of (possibly partially transparent!)
layers to a stream of ANSI-code peppered output.

This in turn has already been used to create an ansi-coded VIDEO
stream.  Yes, my mud actually has text-based video.

Come to think of it, using one of the layers in the painter as a
target for a 3D polygonal based renderer...

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Dread Quixadhal <quixadhal at gmail.com> wrote:
> Nah, let’s make a multiplayer game that puts the screen in character-by-character mode and uses curses to show a 2D overhead map, where you can use the vi keys to run around and shoot at, or lob grenades at, other players.  It could be called Dwork Hunt.
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Blain
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 15:43
> To: DGD
> Subject: Re: [DGD] Where did all the players go?
>
> Let's make a single-player game where you walk around a house and down into
> caves, solving puzzles, avoiding lurking creatures that'll eat you in one
> round by caring a light source. We can call it Dwork.
>
> On Dec 12, 2017 12:49, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Interestingly enough I was hoping that the cloud-server thing (which
>> might have been dworkin's early, lwo-inventory using mud) was going to
>> be part of this sort of packaged deal.
>>
>> As the architect of DGD itself being the designer I think that a few
>> of the ideas in that project (presently in the git history and/or
>> cited on the ML in teh past) are probably meritful.
>>
>> I noticed something in there for example about continuations.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Blain <blain20 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > So... when do we begin making Dowrkin MUD?  We'll need to showcase our
>> > blossoming package distro mudlib, after all.
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2017 11:31, "Raymond Jennings" <shentino at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:56 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:15:38 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
>> >>> I was informed by a public post from ChrisA that one of the side
>> >>> effects of a persistent world was a load of junk left behind in
>> >>> Marrach, including but not limited to heaps of scrolls, and piles of
>> >>> food items that should long since have decayed.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, this was why I mentioned how a persistent world more or less
>> requires
>> >> enforced decay of things. I made some pretty extensive design for truely
>> > huge
>> >> game world with 'managed persistence' where things left alone may decay
>> or
>> >> otherwise get returned to the 'resource pool'. Managed in that some
>> items
>> >> might take pretty much forever, others will take a short time.
>> >
>> > One of the comments found on phantasmal's website talked about a
>> > world's "metabolism", and that comment in turn was probably found on
>> > this very list in the past.  Noah often pulled notes like that when he
>> > was maintainer of the phantasmal site.
>> >
>> >> As the core for this game world would be generated from a map (either
>> >> generated or a 'real' map provided as a file), all the persistence is
>> > based on
>> >> layers on top of the generated world, where each layer has a different
>> > rate of
>> >> decay.
>> >>
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >>> One of the features they could have used DGD for was a persistnet
>> >>> world...and they wound up implementing it with a hierarchial
>> >>> save_object/load_object structure, plus a few daemons to pick up on
>> >>> changed .c files.  Was actually pretty amazing to see how they'd
>> >>> worked around missing what DGD has.
>> >>
>> >> Been there, done that, including the replacing of outdated objects and
>> > clones,
>> >> transfering internal state (and while at it, saving and reloading
>> internal
>> >> state over reboots). It can be done, but quickly becomes a mess.
>> >
>> > Yes, which is why I praise DGD for doing it the easy way.
>> >
>> >> Yet, when all a game needs is player inventories persisting between
>> > sessions
>> >> and over reboots, its often what lpmuds do. And while I really like the
>> > idea
>> >> of a persistent world, many classic muds don't seem to need one, and for
>> >> example due to your first comment, it might not even be desirable (WOTF
>> > still
>> >> needs work on dealing with random junk lying around)
>> >
>> > In this game, being able to plant a tree and watch it grow over a
>> > month of RL time was immensely satisfying...and even got our druid
>> > community lecturing the other PCs about johnny appleseeding
>> >
>> >
>> >>> ...and as a wizard I had not succeeded in avoiding what seems to have
>> >>> become an in-joke on their mud.  That of accidentally nuking every
>> >>> tree in the world.  Seems to have turned into a rite of passage for
>> >>> wizards.
>> >
>> >> Been there, done that... :-)
>> >
>> >> Its a risk inherent to most recomile and replace setups. I did at some
>> > point
>> >> manage to protect my own implementation from this, but.. that was after
>> it
>> >> having gone wrong more than a few times.
>> >
>> > Actually this had nothing to do with recompiling or replacing.  It was
>> > a fat-fingered command at the wizard prompt. :P
>> >
>> >> Bart.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 7:24 AM,  <bart at wotf.org> wrote:
>> >>> > For me, it has taken quite some time to wrap my head around the
>> > concept and
>> >>> > implications of persistence. The first thing to realize is there
>> being
>> > 2
>> >>> > different kinds of persistence involved.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > - persistent server
>> >>> > - persistent world
>> >>> >
>> >>> > You need the first to build the second, but the fir5st does not imply
>> > the
>> >>> > second, there is value in having a persistent server without a
>> > persistent
>> >>> > world in that you can do updates to the mud without needing
>> 'reboots'.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > With regards to persistent worlds, from a classic lpmud point of
>> view,
>> > this is
>> >>> > typically about 'preserving inventories 'between sessions, and
>> > possibly across
>> >>> > reboots.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > While those can be useful if not desirable features, this is really
>> > not what a
>> >>> > persistent world is about. On a mud implementing a persistent world,
>> > you could
>> >>> > drop something on some out of the way location, and given nobody
>> walks
>> > by and
>> >>> > picks it up, it will still be there 10 years from now. Not needed for
>> > every
>> >>> > game, actuall not even desirable for some games. But for roleplaying
>> > games,
>> >>> > this can be quite valuable. For games which let players build their
>> > own world,
>> >>> > this is highly desirable. AT any rate, a persistent world also more
>> or
>> > less
>> >>> > requires dealing with 'enforced' decay of things, ie, the house a
>> > player built
>> >>> > should, unless maintained, over time become a ruin, and in due time,
>> > 'nature'
>> >>> > should take it back and return the location to its original shape.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > This requires being able to maintain the state of every object
>> > potentially for
>> >>> > many years.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Bart
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:33:08 -0800, Raymond Jennings wrote
>> >>> >> I probably don't have to remind everyone of Castle Marrach and
>> >>> >> company taking advantage of persistence and runtime upgrading.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I still have high praise for Skotos Tech for those...and I wasn't
>> >>> >> kidding when I've often said in the past that they've inspired
>> others.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Second Contract for one
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> And for antoher, Noah Gibb's very own Phantasmal which I only
>> >>> >> inherited when he was overwhelmed by real life.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Kotaka's inspiration goes without saying.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 3:29 AM, Felix A. Croes <felix at dworkin.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >>> >> > bart at wotf.org wrote:
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >>[...]
>> >>> >> >> In all fairness, unless you have been running a persistent mud
>> for
>> > quite a
>> >>> >> >> while, or done live database conversions on a running system or
>> > such, its
>> >>> > very
>> >>> >> >> difficult to realize what really needs to happen.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Sometimes new ideas are simply not accepted.  DGD has had
>> > persistance and
>> >>> >> > runtime upgrading for more than 20 years now.  This doesn't fit
>> > into the
>> >>> >> > LPmud view, and probably never will.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Regards,
>> >>> >> > Felix Croes
>> >>> >> > ____________________________________________
>> >>> >> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> >>> >> ____________________________________________
>> >>> >> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
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>> >>> > http://www.om-d.org/
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ____________________________________________
>> >>> > https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> >>> ____________________________________________
>> >>> https://mail.dworkin.nl/mailman/listinfo/dgd
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrobjective/
>> >> http://www.om-d.org/
>> >>
>> >> ____________________________________________
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>> > ____________________________________________
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