[MUD-Dev] Wild west (was Guilds & Politics)

[Marian Griffith]

On Mon 22 Dec, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:

> Mike Sellers <mike at online-alchemy.com> wrote:

> >At 08:54 PM 12/21/97 PST8PDT, Ola Fosheim Gr=F8stad wrote:

> Well, I realize that the term "fascist" isn't the proper term, I used
> it because I don't know the proper english term. I still think it
> describes pretty well what this scheme easily can turn into.

"Big Brother" (from Orwell's 1984) is probably a better term for what
you are thinking of.

> The main thing is, being logged is unpleasant.  If people monitor you,
> it means they don't trust you, that they are going to use that
> information to your disadvantage. That isn't freedom.  Freedom is what
> MUDs are about?

Hardly.  Muds are a social game.  This implies social rules and some
control of whether those rules are obeyed or not. How much rules and
how much control is up to the individual game administrator.  And of
course the fact there is some control is part of those social rules,
so players have a right to be told about it.  They should not demand
them to be absent though.

> A robust systems should protect the users from the admins!!! I'm
> serious!

I'm convinced you're serious. I do not agree however. Admins are part
of the game and thus are bound by the same social rules. They've been
granted some special powers for specific tasks. Any other use is just
abuse,  and should be treated in the same way  as any player breaking
the rules is treated.

> >>I think the proper way to handle this problem is to allow the
> >>_offended_ person to turn on logging of incoming harrasment.  A slip
> >>is ok, persistant repeated harrasment isn't.

> >That might work -- if this logging was uneditable by anyone.  But I think
> >that if people knew their communications were logged (maybe purged after a
> >week or something), there would be a lot less harassment in the first place. =20

> Well, the trouble is, what is harassment?  In my opinion a first time
> "harassment" is ok.  To continue after the offended person asks you to
> stop bothering him/her isn't.  I personally don't think saying "fuck
> off you big fat asshole, find someone else to screw" is harassment,
> some would...  If you have a really sick player then you (admin) could
> tell him that you have had several complaints and that all of his
> actions will be logged.

I think you're quite right about that harassment means repetitive beha-
viour (not necessarily with the same activity). The second example is I
think rude and offensive but not harassment in itself.
And if you have a really sick player then the admin should not warn him
that he is being logged.  By that time he may have done too much damage
already.  Talk to some experienced imm  about the more serious cases of
harassment he or she encountered.  Examples I have witnessed  as an imm
and as a player are:
Repeatedly linkspamming the victim (by dropping hundreds of breads in a
room during a fight).  Healing the monsters the victim was fighting. To
spread a disease wherever the victim was going until people began to a-
void him.  Gossiping about the victim and trying to cause arguments be-
tween the victim's friends.  Spreading logs of private conversation  of
the victim.  Making false complaints to the imms about the victim. Real
life stalking. And attempted extorsion of certain favours.
And no, I don't want the job of an Imm anymore.

> Note that I am not talking about systems targeting 7-12 years old
> kids, I'm talking about systems targeting 13+.

In my brief experience age does not seem to make much difference with
how immature some people can behave.

> It is a matter of probability. If that one person is a tyrant then it
> probably will show in the system as well.  I think having 4 people,
> where one of them is a simple minded (not necessarily a tyrant) is
> worse.  I also believe that a group of people won't take the
> responsibility as easily as a single discrete person, depending on the
> environment...  Actually these things are really difficult.  You could
> make it a little better by logging log access.  It IS extremely
> tempting to check the logs of annoying users who say a lot of funny
> weird things...

A reasonably safe situation is  where the ability to snoop a player can
only be granted by another admin  not doing the checking.  This way you
must explain to somebody else why you want to log or snoop a player be-
fore you get the ability. It should prevent the 'bored imm snooping the
player' syndrome.  As long as the higher imms take their responsibility
serious.

> Logging all the activity of 100 users because 1 user occasionally say
> or do something some of the other users dislike is bad... Very bad...

Agreed. Logging should be used as a way to gather evidence, not as a
precaution.

Marian
--=20
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...

Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey