[RP v. Power Gaming v. Pkilling]

[Jeff Kesselman]

At 09:38 AM 6/1/97 PST8PDT, you wrote:

>Still I'ld say
>that the overall feeling of powergamers towards role-players is sort of
>like, 'Hmmm, okay.  If that's what floats your boat...'  From the time
>I've spent on Tinys (my first mud was a MUX, in fact) I noticed a
>pretty strong disdain for diku/lp-ites, and the violent oposition I've
>seen in recent weeks on this list makes me think that the RP-folks here
>were mugged by someone claiming to be a diku player long ago and have
>harbored a deep grudge ever since.

No, but youa re close.

Roleplayers don't GO to Diku mUDS. We stay to Reolaply envrionemnets.

Pkilerls DO coem to our Roleplay envrionments and abuse us.

Thus, what you have seen is 100% in accord with my earlier comments, but
your conclusion is backwards.


>All negativity aside - absolutely!  You design a game a certain way, and
>it attracts certain kinds of players - the ones that want to play that
>kind of game.  And there you go, that's all there is to it.

I agree, thsi was my point. My exuberence came from exasperation from a
situation I've treid to help manage for over a year..  caliban gave an
EXCELLENT summation of it in full, Ild justr efer back to it.

See my comment abvoe though in re who goes where.

>
>I think it's also pretty silly to think that you can categorize people
>so easily.  

Thsi isn't 'easily" this is 20 years of Roelplay experience.  thes
eproblems are NOt new.  The only new thign is that you arent dealign witha
small group of freinds who can jus tthrow out anyoen whose play style
clashes...

>I think I've already described my ex-roommates who play
>almost exclusively powermuds, although they've also played plenty of MUSHes
>in their day.  They also spend 12 - 14 hours every Thrusday playing
>pen-and-paper RPGs with a few other friends.  One of them checked out
>several books on Celtic mythology in order to further flesh out one of
>his characters.  As he puts it - "Why role-play via scrolling text when
>it's so much more fun to do it with my friends?"

Because of three factors:
(1) MANy people can NOT get a game together regualrly, they don't know
enough people locally with thsi same wierd hobby.  Onlien provides them a
communtiy thats nmore or less always there and ready.

(2) Anonymity.  Thsi has two advanatges:
	(a) For the beginnign roleplayer it p[roivide s aless threatening
           environment to experiment with roleplay (preoviding you lose
           the Pkilling morons Caliban described so nicely.)
	(b) Stronger immersion.  The problem with around a table is that it
           is VERY hard to break the knwoeledge that the 16 yaer a
	    old blonde half-elf yoru flirting with is played by a 45 year old
pot bellied male computer scientist.  The afct that you
	    CANNOT see the player FORCES you to think in terms of character.
	    This BTW is why most serious roleplayers onlien take such
	    offense at OOC questions...

(3) (er I forgot point 3... maybe it'll come abck to me...)      

>Actually, you should modify this to be 'assholes and clueless people.'
>The *vast* majority of bug-abuse I've seen in my admin and player days
>both are from people who don't know any better.  They just assume that's

Hmm. I don't thin kthis qualifies under "bug abuse" to me.  Im talkign
abotu the p[alyers who beat on the software to find "dupe bugs" (as an
example) and then run around duping all the powerful items... these peopel
KNOW this is nto a part of the game as designed.  The same people in m
yexperince, btw,a s soo nas you gfix the dupe bugs graduate to genuine
hacking.

>Of course, but I must ask, is this *really* a problem?  It's certainly
>not a design problem - it's just bugs in the system.  Secondly, I've
>seen very, very few cases of successful hacking on muds.  In most cases

Dpeends on how broadly you deifne MUD.  If you include the comemrical
graphic game such as NWN, Diablo and DSO its been a HUGE problem.

>>  What does this, pray tell, have to do
>>with anything?

because in tehs eenvironments, the ahckers are al lhackign for one reason--
to push their pwoer level illegally. In many ways its the ultimate
expression of unethical powergaming (ther IS sucha  thing as ethical
powergaming-- but IMo part of the ethics is keeping it in teh right setting.)
>
>Again, something I've never seen.  I've seen people powertrip or
>otherwise make general nuissances of themselves plenty of times, but I've
>never seen this.

Its clear to me you have been dealing with closed or limited userhsip MUDS
and not open commercial environments...

>Case in point: Chris L is designing what could be classified as
>the most powergame-y mud ever, but I don't see a lack of flexibilty and
>creative ways to do things *there*.  In fact, I see more than any mud
>I've ever played, role-play or not.

Great, as I said, proper context. As long as it clearly defined as a
power-ganme and not a rolepaly game he shouldn't have any of the worst
problems...

BUT I PROMISE you he WILl have people trying to break the system.
This si the problem with POWER as a goal... the ultimate power is in
getting AROUND the restrictions of the game, not going throguh them.

Thsi is why RPers tend to be a "better" community froma systems standpoint.
they have nothing to gain from breaking your system.

Also IMo he will not get much societal development... setting people
against each other gives you at best the msot primitive of societies...
basicly street gangs banded togetehr only for survival and to be able to do
mroe damage to the "enemy".

>