[MUD-Dev] Alright... IF your gonan do DESIESE...

[clawrenc at cup.hp.com]

In <Marcel-1.09-0620204935-b49Ky&5 at Gryphon.knoware.nl>, on 06/20/97 
   at 07:25 PM, Marian Griffith <gryphon at iaehv.nl> said:

>On Thu 19 Jun, clawrenc at cup.hp.com wrote:

>> In <3.0.2.32.19970617205157.00b4c158 at mail.tenetwork.com>, on 06/18/97 
>>    at 09:26 PM, Jeff Kesselman <jeffk at tenetwork.com> said:


>> Should the force be manifested in a dragon which represents such force
>> and physical power that no living thing in the land can withstand its
>> assault then what about:

>I'm not sure if players should be able to affect dragons,  or
>creatures of a similar power like major demons, to a significant
>effect. At least the effort involved in that should be such that it
>does not seem worth-wile to even a group of players.

Given the average reputed size of a dragons hoard, it swould seem a
very likely and very attractive nut for a group of players to band
together to crack.

Consider the cae of an older dragon with several million pieces of
gold on a game where the average rate of gold acquisition by players
is on the order of 100 or less per hour?  Wouldn't the idea of 20 or
so players banding together to somehow snag the dragon's hoard seem
attractive?  Minimally it divies out to 50,000 pieces of gold each, or
an average time value of 500 hours...

>>   Building dragon impenetrable fortresses?

>This is a bit cheap (in my opinion).  Why should players be able to
>do this. And why should they even want to?  Even if they do,  how can
>the players build something that an animal the size and strength of a
>dragon can't tear down again.

Example: a narrow crawling/scampering diameter only tunnel dug under
Mount Olympus to a system of caverns lieing under the mountain, many
hundreds of feet down and many thousands of feet inside the mountain. 
It would arguably be a touch if not impossible nut for a dragon to
crack.  Why would a player build it?  If Mt Olympus is in the middle
of dragon territory, and if dragons are rapacious, then he can offer
the only guaranteed dragon-proof dwelling and storarge area in the
entire game...  That would seem valuable to both the dragon inclined
and disinclined.  Certainly lodging and storage could command
respectable rents.

>>   Building fortresses only penetrable at great expense and effort to
>> the dragon (ie they don't bother)?

>This makes more sense. Except that you can expect that a dragon would
>be intrigued by the structure and may look for way to crack the shell
>that encases so much tasty morsels?

A lot of this is dependant on the curiosity and awareness level of
dragons.  

  Choice #1: a field full of tasty cows.  

  Choice #2: A stone fortress of annoying humans who will poke me with
sharp stinging things.  (DragonNote to self: Humans herd cows,
guaranteeing me foodstuff)

Which is it to be?

>>   Emptying an entire region of dragon prey animals (all humans, deer,
>> etc etc) and keeping it empty for a significant period.  Will not the
>> dragons begin to hunt elsewhere and avoid that area as "useless"?

>Possibly, but they probably will first start hunting for those guards
>and hunters that work to keep the region empty.  One could wonder why
>players would want to make this effort?  

See the above example of players banding together to loot a dragon's
hoard.

>And if the game should be so
>detailed that this is truly possible.

Accepted.  Given some decent frequency of dragons of the calibre we
are discussing (and matchingly large sized dragon hoards) it would
seem an obvious equation however for players to assume and take.

>>   Bubba locates the dragon's lair.
...
>>   Bubba waits for the dragon to leave its lair.
>>   Bubba walls over the entrance to the lair with himself inside.

>If he can do that he probably would also be able to knock the dragon
>unconscious?

Two instant thoughts come to mind:

  Bubba causes a rock fall to cover the mouth of the cave  with
sufficient depth that the dragon will take a long (enough) time to dig
thru.

  Bubba imports rock to do the same thing, possibly via masonry
(dragon breath helps cure the masonry?).

>>   Bubba has digs a tunnel to somewhere else far away.
>>   Bubba gets the dragon's treasure and lives the fine life.

>*grin* Of course the dragon would let him get away with carrying a
>couple of tons of gold through a tunnel?

Is the dragon aware of the tunnel and Bubba's position within it?

How about a dragon's cave on one side of a mountain and a tunnel clear
thru the entire mountain to the other side?  Takes too long to dig? 
Dig it first from the other side until *almost* at the dragon's cave,
and then dig the final stretch from the other side.  

>> Conquering can and should occassionally be a problem.  Manipulation
>> should always be possible if difficult.

>What it really is that I liked about the dragon example is  that it
>represents the fact that the players can't become so powerfull that
>like on must muds or ad&d games there eventually is no challenge to
>them.  If the world is full of creatures, and events (!), that can
>overpower even a small army of the most powerfull players then they
>can't afford to become complacent.  If players can hope to outsmart
>creatures or not is secondary to that I think.

Agreed.

>Besides creatures like dragons, demons and demi-gods  that are much
>too strong for players to fight head-on,  there may also be natural
>disasters that may kill a players:  avalanches, floodings, tornados
>or fires can be a real risk that a player.  They have a lot in com-
>mon with dragons.  Like that a player can't survive a fight but may
>try to escape a confrontation. And that there is little direct gain
>from a confrontation.

Agreed.

--
J C Lawrence                           Internet: claw at null.net
(Contractor)                           Internet: coder at ibm.net
---------------(*)               Internet: clawrenc at cup.hp.com
...Honorary Member Clan McFUD -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith...