[MUD-Dev] "short" Introductory Message (fwd)

[Nathan Yospe]

On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 clawrenc at cup.hp.com wrote:

:In <Pine.GSO.3.96.970620085310.13247A-100000 at dryslwyn>, on 06/20/97 
:   at 07:16 PM, Martin Keegan <martin at cam.sri.com> said:
:
:>On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 clawrenc at cup.hp.com wrote:

:Re: Quests
:
:>> >> And were for the uninitiated, utterly superb.  <I bow in their general
:>> >> direction>
:>> 
:>> >They were not too much fun if you were doing them for the second
:>> >time.
:>> 
:>> This is a fault of the quest system in general as implemented in MUDs.
:>> not of Island.  It is *rare* to find a quest on any MUD which isn't
:
:>Well, the game didn't attempt to make any allowances for people who
:>completed all the quests - once you were finished, that was it. You
:>normally sat around as some flavour of wizard until the next quest
:>upgrade. These only happened every 18 months or so, and the game
:>simply wasn't designed to deal with people who played that long.

:Outside of the faults of repeatability, this is a fault of goal
:oriented games where there is a single primary goal.  Shades, MUD1/2,
:MIST, and all their descendants more or less suffer the same problems. 
:Once you've reached the top there's little to nothing left but the
:attack the system itself.

Or you find a new toy... remember, the infocom games kept producing
sequels. If there was just a bit more diversity in the mud world...

:cf the endless literary field detailing the bored immortal.
:
:cf for creationists, "Why else are there so many species of beetles?"

God had a beetle complex?

:I'd propose a system where the primary goal is not accomplishable.  It
:is factually and logically impossible.  Then have the game being
:approximating the goal in various flavours.  cf Legend and its
:balancing of the skill tree.

Ah. Personally, I LIKE having a theoretically attainable goal for my
games. In Sing2, that goal is the destruction of the entire Andromedan
empire, including its emporor... or rather, that is the only goal
completely supported by the game alone. Of course, with a hundred other
goals to pursue...

:>> trite once you've done it the first time.  Cf my recent description of
:>> the Fortress Fract, King Mandel, and Princess Julia for a "quest"
:
:>The various scenarios mentioned here ought to be written up as some
:>sort of reference and posted every month, so that newcomers will know
:>what is being discussed.
:
:Not a bad idea in general.  But instead of making it a library of
:scenarios, how about a summary of the outcomes of threads, a detailing
:of the tools and scenarios used in those threads, and an outline of
:the list members and their activities (ie condensed intro)?
:
:Perhaps I should start up a meta list for this?

It would be appreciated.

:>I think it was Mtf who first said that Island was a great example of
:>things NOT to do.
:
:Its so much more intrigueing to do a game which exemplifies the things
:*not* to do, yet which remains playable.

I dunno. I would have described Tomb Raider exactly that way... few people
agree, though I wonder how many of them are not simply suffering from Lara
induced drooling. (I refer, of course, to the 1D vertical collision
detection, as well as the harshly limited support for extension)

:>> This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of democracies.  Equally I
:>> don't accept the "Most people..." assertion, (this is straying into
:>> philosophical areas not not meant for this list much tho I delight in
:>> them).  I profess the view that discrimination and exacting selection
:...
:>I'm afraid that this issue has design implications. Most people don't
:>like to be challenged (see Marian's similar thoughts). Once you have
:>enough muds competing for players, muds can gain a competitive
:>advantage by not doing things players don't like - by not challenging
:>the players. 

:Thus we have standards, and things that break standards.  QWERTY vs
:Maltron vs Dvorak etc.  I think we are early enough in the growth
:cycle that its still breakable.

Personally, I suspect that what we have here, on this list, is the
incubator for the next explosion of standard breakers. This is a good
thing by me.

:>Any doubters should read Alberto Barsella's frothings in
:>r.g.mad (Combat system design thread).

:Alberto is a member now BTW.  (I think)  

As long as Katrina, Reese, Ashewhatever the third, and Zump and company
are not admitted... heck, even Katrina and Reese would be OK, if they
could just learn to shut their traps on occasion... and avoided language
issues and codebases.

:>> have now been falsely equated with intellectual snobbery and a generic
:>> denigration of all those not practicing it.  Its a cheap half-arsed
:>> equation which doesn't stand up, but the media like it, and it sells
:>> newspapers almost as well as the Sun's page 3, so it must be good.

:>Hear, hear!

:Sorry, the Sun hasn't quite perfected the Smello-tit feature.

I must be missing something here. Is this a tabloid?

:>> >This system seems like a thought experiment but it's actually a
:>> >reaction against what I call "higher order imbalance" in many muds.
:>> >In some muds, powerful players can promote lowly players to high
:>> >ranks, as much as they want - they have limitless power. In a mud
:>> >with levels, a level 100 player could promote a level 10 player to
:>> >level 80 - as many times as she wanted. Really, she ought to use up
:>> >sufficient power to *drop* 70 levels.
:
:>[mayor snipped]
:> 
:>>   Perhaps investment economics would make a decent model?

:>There's a branch of economics called 'experimental economics',
:>related to game theory, which is involved in actually doing
:>simulations to verify axioms and assumptions that economists had
:>previously worked out on paper. These people are vaguely interested
:>in muds, and probably know just how to calculate a sane "cost" for
:>creating objects.

:<ponder>
:
:Gotta go talk to some o' them people.
:
:<<remembers: me'n'economists mix about as well as rabid cats and
:dogs>>

I spent a good two months of intense consultation with some profs in the
linguistics department when designing my NLP... suppose this would be
similar.

:>> How about, "The more capable the object, the more the creator is
:>> personally at risk for it?"  Then a "good" creator can create as much
:>> as he wants, but a "bad" creator gets negative investment feedback and
:>> zeros out.

:>Well, CamMUD is going to have a system where the arches penalise bad
:>spelling, grammar, punctuation and general Badness.
:
:A voice is heard thundering down from above:
:
:  "Thou are Bad!  Learn to spell!"
:
:God has spoken.

You meant "Thou art Bad! Learneth to spell!", didn't you?

\***ZZZZAP!!!***\

Ah. "are" it is.

ob Pratchett "He was the sort of person who would stand on a hilltop in a
thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor and screaming to the heavens 'All
gods are bastards!'"...

:>> >> Descriptions, definitions, or just names?
:>> 
:>> >Such strong typing, Chris! :) 
:>> 
:>> I know.  I wear out keyboards at an alarming rate.  <hang head>
:
:>This is from some very bad joke about strongly typed languages with
:>textbook examples in bold typefaces.
:
:Yes, and literally.  I wear out keyboards at an alarming rate.  I'm
:not quite as bad at Matt Giwer who very literally wears *holes* in his
:keyboards (he has two holes in his space bar where his thumbs hit) --
:I just wear the whole thing out.

I replaced my keyboard last week... the space bar broke in half down the
middle.

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Nathan F. Yospe - University of Hawaii Dept of Physics - yospe at hawaii.edu