[MUD-Dev] Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)

[Jon A. Lambert]

On  2 Nov 97 at 15:15, Marian Griffith wrote:
> On Sun 02 Nov, Sauron wrote:
> > Marian wrote:
> > > I don't know about coding things but it can't be so hard to have a
> > > realistic way to arrest people. It happens all the time of course?
> > > You just need some way for your police to restrain people. Things
> > > like shackles and handcuffs?
> 
> > coding is how you program the game to do whatever you want to do. i
> > really think it would be very inefficient to have to have a guard hold
> > and restrain a person, apply handcuffs and take them away.
> 
> Why? Police seems to do it daily without problems.

It is certainly feasible to code combat systems in such a way that 
death is not a likely outcome or even a likely objective of combat.  
Depends on your genre and game theme of course.  

> > my belief is
> > that have the guards be set a high lvl (assuming that you are using
> > levels), have them fight using the ic combat system (so that you can
> > possibly defeat one, but not a whole mob), have some way to restrain the
> > mage from escaping during this combat (ie hold person or have them
> > "surrounded"), and when they "die", instead of being killed are
> > teleported to the dungeon w/ and explanation like "the guards beat you
> > until you fall unconscious. you awake alone in a dungeon cell." what
> > actually happened can easily be inferred.
> 
> I would say -this- is overly complicated.  Why not simply have the
> guards order you to surrender.  If you do so you're handcuffed and
> brought to the police station. Or if you refuse you fight them for
> real.  They'll still arrest you if you are unconscious rather than
> dead at the end of the fight. Of course if theres no more guard to
> fight you can walk away.

I would believe that submission or surrender should always be an 
option.  Especially in dealings with "civilized" NPCs.
The presumption of my combat system is that PCs and NPCs become
unconscious at 0 hit points, not dead (in general).  Any automated 
combat stops allowing the PC or NPC to make a decision on whether to 
finish the kill, heal, or bind and imprison the fallen.

I'm not fond of teleport mechanisms.  I'd rather the guards parade
the captive through the streets on the way to prison. ;)
 
> > > >   Mages present an especially problematic scenario, as
> > > > they have the option of teleporting beyond the reach of the law...
> 
> > > Why? If the police employs mages they have the same option. Or they can
> > > prevent the gate from opening, or from closing behind the mage. There's
> > > any number of things you can do to solve this I would think?
> 
> > but then you're being hypocritical and really endangering the suspension
> > of disbelief. it becomes unreal (in the sense that realism is unto the
> > game itself) because you've outlawed mages in a city, but here you are
> > using other mages to keep them out.
> 
> Hypocritical? I can't quite remember how this dicussion started but
> I do not believe it included outlawing magic in the city.  Somebody
> just complained  that it was easy to control ordinary fighters that
> entered the city by forcing them to abandon their weapons, but that
> this obviously  would not work for mages.  Or at least the original
> idea was that it would be impossible to do ICly.

Outlawing mages within a city... Someone mentioned the idea that 
magic use might leave traces of magical energy.  Following this 
idea a bit further perhaps those who have employed magic recently
have detectable amounts left on their hands ("hand waving") much
like the nitrate residue left from firing firearms.  Surely entering 
town could be checked out by guards at the city gates with some form 
of device perhaps even magical in nature.  Of course if a mage (or
fighter with prohibited weapons) is able to "sneak" into and out of a 
town more power to them. :)

> [crime snipped]
> 
> > > Why not put a criminal on the wanted list if they run off this way. Then
> > > they must disguise themselves on return or risk being recognised and ar-
> > > rested next time they connect?
> 
> > this is somewhat feasible, though of course the guards would already
> > know that
> > Bubba is an outlaw, but you have to find some way to get players to risk
> > their lives to capture him. a high reward works sometimes, but not
> > always, especially w/ players not interested in money.
> 
> *shrug* Not sure if I would care to encourage players to play the
> role of bounty hunters, but I would guess the principles stay the
> same regardless.
 
The key here is whether the guards can "recognize" Bubba.  
Recognition code for PCs and NPCs seems like [a good idea] to me.

> > > > More realistically, just force _characters_ to remain in-game even while
> > > > the players are away...It becomes difficult to balance on a PK mud, but
> > > > managible if you allow players to create scripts and defences to use in
> > > > place of human input.
> 
> > > That's a possibility also even though it would make it impossible for
> > > somebody like me to play your game.
> >

Not necessarily.  It can be done in a manner that does not resemble
programming or scripting in the traditional sense.

> > why? seriously you either place your character in a "safe room" where
> > they cant be attacked (if the game allows such rooms) or you leave your
> > connection active (their are numerous programs out there that will
> > reconnect for you if you get dumped) and it is not very hard to program
> > a simple script that will run when attacked or respond by saying run a
> > room, hide, when X enters, attack X, run, etc.
 
The PC simply becomes an NPC in the game and would return to 
"normal" daily life.  The presumes you have game mechanisms to define 
and handle this sort of activity.  I don't think keeping the 
connection active is a reasonable solution.

> > > Of course nothing would prevent the patrol guards to send for a mage or
> > > two to disable your magical defenses.  If the city allows such defenses
> > > in town in the first place. Or the mage would place a magical dome over
> > > your house that prevents you from leaving?
> 
> > again the problem of employing mages being hypocritical.
> 

This is not necessarily a hypocritical action.  Perhaps clerics of a 
given diety are behind such laws and participate in such enforcement
activities.  Or mages who are not members of the towns' guild are
forbidden.

> > > > Basically, I'd have to create a near-omniscient, near-omnipresent, and
> > > > near-omnipotent police force protecting this anti-violence zone, but such
> > > > a force would by its nature overrun and control the entire mud-world to
> > > > impose its doctrine of non-violence everywhere.  While this could be an
> > > > interesting twist to the mud's theme, its not what I'm looking for.
> > >
 
What are you looking for?  Guaranteeing the integrity of a 
non-violent zone?  

--
Jon A. Lambert

Nature comprehends the visible and invisible Creatures of the Whole 
universe. What we call Nature especially, is the universal fire or 
Anima Mundi, filling the whole system of the Universe, and therefore
is a Universal Agent, omnipresent, and endowed with an unerring instinct,
and manifests itself in fire and Light. It is the First creature of 
Divine Omnipotence.
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