[MUD-Dev] Re: You think users won't number crunch and statis

[Matt Chatterley]

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On 09-Jul-98 Jon A. Lambert wrote:
> On  2 Jul 98, Travis S. Casey wrote:
>> 
> [snip conversation about number hiding]]
>>
>> In doing that, hiding numbers isn't the only thing that I'd need to do.
>> To take a typical, D&D-derived game system and hide the numbers wouldn't
>> help in the suspension of disbelief; indeed, it would quite likely hurt
>> it, or make the game nearly impossible to play.  I'd need to try to set
>> things up so that the game works as much as possible like the way you'd
>> expect a real world to work -- so that you don't *need* the numbers as
>> much as you do in a D&D-style world.
>>
> 
> Exactly.  Many P&P systems require players to have numbers readily 
> available for resolving actions.  Automating the process of action 
> resolution make many of these numbers meaningless and unnecessary.  
> Typically the only numbers that require display are those involving 
> vital statistics and those involved with players considering there 
> chances at performing an activity.  And these numbers can be 
> displayed in any number of ways; literally, textual description or 
> graphically.  

Right. I also feel that replacing the numbers with more descriptive information
is conducive to a different approach to gaming (more below). It also (to my
mind) makes it 'friendlier' to those who are unaccustomed with this type of
game, and requires less instruction - "My strength is 18? What does that
/mean/?" versus "Okay, so I'm very strong.." (of course, the logical
continuation is similar, since it is ".. compared to what?").
 
> Rolemaster, for instance, has a 6 or more page character sheet which 
> is largely a collection of numbers.  In addition, there are dozens of 
> tables which need to be referenced in order to derive one's chances 
> at success at a given action.    In short, all these numbers make the 
> game less playable from a ftf standpoint and their exposure would
> be very counterproductive to online play.  Intimate knowledge of 
> these numbers would of course be very helpful to GoPers.  However, I 
> think only "Rainman" would be able to process this quantity of 
> information fast enough to gain significant advantage.  Long term
> experience may lead players to instinctively guess at odds.  As 
> one who has attempted to min/max creation and play on occasion for 
> grins and giggles, I find that the many situational  and exception 
> variables to numerous to get a firm handle on.

Right again. We're also in a situation whereby we can make the 'behind the
scenes' calculations a lot more sophisticated, since people do not need to be
able to cope with them any more. Displaying a lot of information which is
needed can make playing tedious. I find numerical data more tedious personally;
others may disagree (do you?).
 
> [snip] 
>> That depends on what your game is.  For me, nothing would be up -- the
>> GoPers who "broke" the system would know the internal rules and numbers,
>> but, since I'm trying to make an accurate simulation, this won't help them
>> much, if at all, and I don't really care if it does help them (as long as 
>> it doesn't give them a huge advantage). The real point of hiding the
>> numbers was to help those who want to roleplay to do so, by eliminating
>> the distraction of numbers.  Short of forcing all the roleplayers to
>> memorize the rules and numbers, the people who have "broken" the system
>> can't prevent it from doing that... and thus, from my point of view, they
>> haven't "broken" the system at all.
> 
> Aye.  Role-players, per my definition, do not often spend a great 
> deal of time crunching numbers in order to gain mechanical advantage.
> More often they are interested in making decisions based on "fuzzy",
> but helpful, feedback from their gamemaster.

As I mentioned at the top, its basically the 'Roll player' versus 'Role player'
response. A PC mage (new to the whole adventuring thing), encounters a small,
yet mean, and armed Goblin. The 'Roll player' thinks 'Well, my strength is 10,
I have 8 hitpoints, and I can cast one magic missile, which does 1d6+2. I can
kill him easily - hed have to win the initiative three times in a row to get
me, and thats only 0.001% likely...' and so forth. The 'Role player' thinks, 'A
Goblin! Scary! Retreat! Weedle out of combat!', and so forth (obviously,
depending upon the character, but, the point is made).

[Snip rest]

- -- 
        -Matt Chatterley
        http://user.itl.net/~neddy/
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.." -John Lennon (Imagine)

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