[MUD-Dev] A footnote to Procedural Storytelling

[Brian Green]

I set forth an opinion about storytelling on the Quill and Brush board
(http://boards.xrgaming.net/cgi/xroads/quillandbrush.cgi?view) that the
most important aspects we have to consider when writing stories are
interactivity (which is also important to the traditional single-player
developers), large (or massive) player populations, and persistence. 
These three issues make storytelling more difficult in our medium than
any other.  In my opinion, any advancements in storytelling in the
online medium will have to consider these factors as well.

Now, to splash some cold water on Travis's ideas. :)

[Note: lots of snipping to save space.]

Travis Nixon wrote:

> Server says:
> 
> Hey, look, I need a new area here.
> 
> Well, let's see...what's the nearby terrain of areas that I already know
> about?  Based on this, I can determine the possible terrain types that I can
> put here.  Well, there's a rainforest right over there, so that discounts
> the possibility of putting a full-blown sand dune desert here.  Let's look
> in my table of possible adjoining terrain types and percentages, and choose
> one.

Sounds good so far.  Obviously, this won't be trivial to implement.

> Ok, now we have a forested mountainside, but it's devoid of animal life.
> What kinds of things are most likely to live here?  Where might they live?
> Figure that out, put down some wildlife, some giant spiders here, a wolfpack
> there.

Uh oh, here's where you could start to get into trouble.  Are you going
to shoot for a "realistic" ecology?  What do the giant spiders eat? 
What does the wolfpack hunt?  Are you going to keep track of the
populations?  If the prey leaves the area, are these animals going to
move on?  Or, are you happy with having an unrealistic ecology that may
end up being more fun?

> How about a wrecked village right there?  Ok, the village is in ruins, but
> who lived there, that will determine the overall style of the buildings.

The generation of the village looks pretty solid.  You could get a lot
of milage out of leaving a few clues for industrious players to
discover.  If the players learn that the ancient Uca-Maca tribe lived
here, they might start searching for the fabled Lost Artifacts of the
Uca-Maca.

> Oh, look, our tables say we should put a pack of goblins here.  

Generating the goblin packs looks good, too.

> Ok, so we have this thing, we'll call it a third pack of goblins, that are
> pacifists.  

Uh oh, here's where you get into serious troubles.  You forgot about the
issues of large player populations and persistence.

So, say a group of hack'n'slashers meets the pacifists first?  They
promptly kill the pacifists for (experience/practice/phat
lewt/fun/choose your own).  Now, all your setup was for naught.  And,
since your world is persistent, you can either re-spawn the pacifists
("d00d, l3tz c4mp da m0bz"), or you have to have a way for your current
setup (the two warring tribes) able to evolve into the same situation (a
pacifist group).  I thought we were still struggling with how to
procedurally set up stories, not how to procedurally set them up using
in-game elements. ;)

> Yes, I realize this is a very contrived example, but I really think that
> doing something like this is not totally unreasonable.  

The setup is not the part I have a problem with.  It's how the players
interacting with the elements you've placed will act.  I'm sure
developers even more jaded than I am could come up with even more
horrific stories than this.

> Imagine you're the first adventurers to reach this particular mountainside.  

"d00d, p0st thi5 0n str4ticz, u get fr33 l3wt!"

> Now, I'm not talking about just a few hours to kill off these goblins.
> There may be hundreds of them in each pack.  It may take you a few days or
> even weeks to finish off the first clan.  

HAHAHA!  You can never tell how fast players will do something. 
Remember, the EverQuest guys (who I have a lot of respect for :) thought
that it would take people a "long time" to get to level 50.  They also
had to change the orignial Avenger quest because no one had found it.

Never underestimate the ability of players to do something too fast or
too slow.  My friends that play EQ run through "hundreds" of monsters in
a typical session.  Anyone with a real desire to do something will find
a way, even if you think it's impossible.  The only way you can make
sure a player doesn't do something is to code it that way.  Even then,
bugs can ruin your day.

> It turns out these goblins have for some reason turned away from their
> spiteful past, and want only to die in peace in the village where the caused
> so much destruction.  So you befriend them, and vow to leave them in peace.
> Maybe you even think to check back periodically to see how they're doing.

Until someone else comes along and kills them all for
(experience/practice/phat lewt/fun/choose your own).  Again, you have to
remember that there are other players and that the world is persistent. 
Other people can (and will) come along and change something you worked
hard to set up.  And, once they change it, it isn't going to be "yours"
anymore.  There are no saved games here.
 
> Maybe he
> even gives you a valuable item that belonged to his father, and tells you
> he's going to go spend the rest of his life living with the goblins if
> they'll have him.

Or, you decide "d00d, 1m g0nn4 g3t ph4t l3wt n xp" and kill him.

> THIS is exactlty the kind of experience I think most players want.  

Hrm, I don't know about "most".  I'd say "some".  You gotta remember,
though, that some of the same people just want to kill stuff and get
treasure.  While stories are definitely a good thing and should be part
of the game, I don't know if I'd be willing to go so far as to say that
most people would love to get mixed up in something like this.  Even
though I love roleplaying, even in paper RPGs I just wanna take a buff
character out and kill stuff from time to time.

If you were talking about a single-player game, I'd see no problem with
this system.  Games like Diablo have shown that people really enjoy
randomly created levels that conform to some restrictions.

> Not everything that comes out of it will be this cool,
> but I don't think I had to make any major leaps of logic to create this
> scenario.  I basically just filled in the blanks with choices that a
> computer can make just as easily as I can.  

The one problem I foresee with this system is how to set it up.  If some
elements make a great story together, but are terrible if mixed with
other elements, then how do you set up a "rules" system that isn't more
time consuming than writing individual stories?  And, the more you
restrict the system, the more likely you are to get repeat stories (Two
warring goblin tribes and a pacifist tribe....AGAIN?!?!)

> Have you truly grasped the scope of the game I want to make here?  If so,
> think I'm completely, hopelessly insane yet?  Well, rest assured, I am quite
> mad, but a little madness never hurt anybody, very much anyway.  

Now, don't get me wrong.  I think there's the start of some good ideas
here.  I think this would work wonderfully as a plot generator in a
single-player game.  So let's consider how to make it appropriate for
the large populations and persistence in a typical online game.  You
solve these problems, and I'm you'll be every MMORPG writer's hero. :)

> I'm just
> mad enough to think it's possible, but sane enough to think that it won't be
> easy by any means, but that it's possible. :)

I like Phinehas's quote, "All things are permissable, but not all things
are expedient."  Just because you can do something doesn't mean it
SHOULD be done.  I think the system needs a lot of work before it'll
stand up to a typical group of players in a typical game, especially a
massive commercial game as discussed before.

All IMHO, of course.  Comments and counter-examples welcomed.

--
"And I now wait / to shake the hand of fate...."  -"Defender", Manowar
     Brian Green, brian at psychochild.org  aka  Psychochild
       |\      _,,,---,,_      *=* Morpheus, my kitten, says "Hi!" *=*
 ZZzz  /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_  
      |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'-'  "Ritalin Cures Next Picasso" 
     '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)               -The_Onion_, August 4th, 1999



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