[MUD-Dev] Fallen Age (was Shameless Plug)

[SavantKnowsAll at cs.com]

First, sorry for my delay in responding -- Requests for Interviews and other 
promotions we will be running have had me in a frenzy all week.

In a message dated 2/18/01 8:42:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
claw at kanga.nu writes:
  
>  >> -- You state that you are implementing an RTS system along with a
>  >> typical MUD-like schem.  How so?
>  
>  > Besides your typical MUD-like RPG game, there's the additional
>  > colonization phase.  Which is simulation of resource management,
>  > as well as RTS.  It's done in "god view" 3D, and is a bit separate
>  > from the game while remaining an integral part of it.  You gain
>  > access to your plot of land at 30 which begins turn based, and you
>  > begin to manage your resources, build property... expand your
>  > land.  Eventually, it moves away from Turn Based Simulation into
>  > Real Time Strategy when you begin to move forward into actual
>  > territory aquisition, etc.
>  
>  Okay, is the area I control in the RTS actually of the game world,
>  or are the two chinese walled?  Can I go visit my cottage and
>  factories as a MUD player, or do they exist in some parallel and
>  inaccessable universe?

Yes, you can go visit your factories and cottage and schools and farms and 
research facilities and barracks and night clubs and housing establishments 
as a MUD player.  However, they are "off camera" in the RPG aspect of the 
game.  (There's no need to clutter up the physical landscape).  It is easily 
accessible through in-game actions (not simply a click of a button on the UI) 
so it doesn't detract from the immersiveness.

>  >> -- Which model of consensual PvP?
>  
>  > The initial designs intended for open PvP after level 30, but soon
>  > after being hired, I shot that down.  
>  
>  Why?

Quite honestly, these are design issues we're going through right now.  I've 
reconsidered things, and will be launching Beta with very different, yet new, 
pvp rules.

>  > Instead, you have "Deathmatches." which instead of your usual 1on1
>  > duels can go up to 6 vs. 6, and give you points for an in-game
>  > Ranking and Ladder system.  
>  
>  Why only two sided?  What about changing sides mid-fight?  Going
>  independant?  Is this in a restricted arena, or in the game world
>  proper?  Can non-combatant players interfere?

We've expanded the system from 1 vs 1 to up to 6 vs 6 -- Moving it beyond 
"two sided" is not currently on radar for us.  Sure, you can change sides 
mid-fight -- but you won't gain the DM points if your team loses.  
Deathmatches can take place anywhere.  Non-combatants can interfere, but 
since it's a PK environment anyway, it won't matter.

>  > Beyond that you have Guild Wars, where also instead of just one
>  > guild going to war against another, they can place a booty prize
>  > inside safety boxes for the winners.  Also, in the colonization
>  > phase, and this is somewhat unconsensual, is when you get real
>  > strategic human skill PvP.  We will also have full PK servers
>  > where we stick the original plot, which include all of the above,
>  > plus open PvP beyond level 30.
>  
>  What about all the ways of indirect PK?  (The normal examples are
>  leading a band of newbies up against Tiamat, or charming an aggro
>  NPC and releasing him in a newbie area/town, but the permutations
>  are near infinite)

You cannot "train" as monster's aggro a bit differently.  We've tried to make 
 "griefing" a difficult task in our game.  Hopefully, Beta will prove we've 
done a decent job.

>  >> -- What sorts of political and legal systems?  How enforced?  Hot
>  >> player defined and manipulable?
>  
>  > On the PK servers, you can place a bounty on grief PKers - that is
>  > the extent of the legal system.  
>  
>  So therefore a guild not able to declare laws for their member's
>  behaviour, is not able to enforce those laws, is not able to detect
>  infractions etc.  Or, to re-phrase, a guild is basically a
>  super-annuated coffe klatch.

Politics come in during colonization and Guild Wars.  Guilds can control 
entire continents and defend or try to expand from there.

In the RPG aspect of the game, Guilds must find ways to enforce laws 
themselves (internally) because every month there are Guild Dues that need to 
be paid, and if every member has not contributed and the guild comes up 
short... eventually they will find their warehouses shut down.

>  > Politics is all player done, in they need to play their politics
>  > well with friends and allies in order to expand their kingdom --
>  > become the Emporer of the server, if they so wish.
>  
>  So you don't actually implement any in-game political systems,
>  structures, or tools and instead assume that in-game players will
>  restrict themselves to chasing the cheese?

The game *is* the political system.  If your game is good enough in design, 
you don't need mechanics to force your players to play a certain way.

>  >> -- You are defining only the single goal of XP?  What's your
>  >> deflative force?  What about the the Stamp Collector?
>  
>  > I don't think I quite understand the question.  The game's about
>  > killing monsters, gaining levels, collecting and making equipment,
>  > and accumulating more turns to advance your empire.
>  
>  How do you lose levels?  What is to prevent Old MUD Syndrome (a
>  variation on political calcification, Old Boys Clubs, and entrenched
>  peerage).

You don't lose levels.

>  What about those who have a different set of puposes for or interest
>  in your game?  What happens if a statistically significant
>  percentage player block doesn't want to just run about and bash
>  monsters, but instead wants to stage and participate in various
>  reformation plays within your towns (or just collect stamps)?

Our Guardians will run sub-plots within each server.  A player can 
concentrate more heavily on colonization if he so chooses.  A player can 
concentrate on producing amazing equipment to become a one stop shop... And 
if you are able to capture that statistically significant percentage of 
players that aren't into playing a /game/ yet buy them -- please let me know, 
there's a finders fee. :)

>  >> -- You have item decay.  What about player aging?
>  
>  > Players will age, but there is currently nothing that aging does
>  > but tell you what age you are.
>  
>  ie Power only acrrues, leading to entrenchment and inflation,
>  especially given that the game is linear and single-purposed.

Of course power only acrrues -- I've yet to meet a single person that likes 
to invest his time in a game only to regress instead of advance.  And the 
game is most definitely not linear and single-purposed - no MMOG is.

>  >> -- You infer various economic systems.  Faucet/drain?
>  
>  > Gaining equipment will not be your typical "monster drops item."
>  
>  ie a faucet.
>  
>  > You will find the equipment from kills, yes, but you'll then need
>  > to find additional resources to "upgrade" that equipment.  Each
>  > item has 3 variations for the first level of upgrade, and 6 for
>  > the second.  
>  
>  Drains.

I won't give away the inner workings of our equipment system, but it is 
indeed much more than faucet and drain.  Trade between players in 
colonization is handled through a common market where values change at real 
time.  

The basic gist of the item system is that it allows for near infinite 
(10,000) unique items, each distinct from the other -- and instead of static 
(or even random) drops for the entire item, they take very many steps to 
create, including costing exp as well as gold.

We're attempting to create several economies as a single economy.  There'll 
be a trade economy (items), a monetary economy (costs of doing certain 
things), and a resource economy (a common/stock market).

>  > Also, the economic structure comes from how well you manage your
>  > resources in colonization.  You don't have "trade skills" per se,
>  > but manage your factories and such well, and you can actually
>  > /produce/ equipment.  A healthy trade economy with different
>  > avenues.
>  
>  Which depending on how it actually intersects the base game would
>  seem either a massive faucet, or the equivalent of providing chess
>  boards to MUD players (very popular in LambdaMOO BTW).

I suppose you'll just have to boot up windows and try it to see the system at 
work for yourself. . :)
 
>  >> -- Loosely, death has little to no effect.  What prevents run
>  >> away inflation via hording and monty haul?
>  
>  > Item decay?
>  
>  That handles part of Monty Haul (I presume money tokens will decay
>  as well?), but it doesn't approach the inflationary problems of
>  infinite aquisition of power by players.

When there's always "something better" (ie no "best") and no static items, 
inflation really isn't a problem -- especially if you run a tight economy 
(Right Mahrin? :).

>  >> - So, I can run a character up to level 30 via a series of 'bot
>  >> scripts, and then spend the rest of my time building my colony up
>  >> until the point that:
>  
>  > You really can't script when spawns aren't static.
>  
>  Sure you can.  Just go have a look at the long history of text
>  MUDs.

Triggers in a text mud and macros in our game are two different things.

>  >> a) I can buy, for cash, any level character I want.
>  
>  > I suppose.
>  
>  >> b) I can squeeze out or control every other land-owner in the
>  >> game
>  
>  > Not really, again this boils down to political warfare between
>  > players.  It won't be as simple as you think, as it takes a lot of
>  > thinking to ally with the right people before jumping down the
>  > thoats of others.
>  
>  I control 80% of the resources, and am sucessfully monopolising
>  them.  I convert my holdings to military production and then
>  approach the remaining 20% with a simple ultimatum:
>  
>    You will either cede all your properties to me now or I will:
>  
>      a) Wipe you off the face of the planet
>  
>    and
>  
>      b) Buy myself a couple level 500 warriors and dedicate them to
>      making your game-playing lives miserable.
>  
>  You seem to assume that competitive forces will handle the monopoly
>  cases where there are no changes in base economic structures, and
>  where there the ties from the RTS to the MUD are implicitly one
>  directional.
>  
>  >> c) I force new land-owners to surrender their new lands to me.
>  
>  > There are mechanics in place to avoid newbie land-owner abuse.
>    
>  Such as?  How about I simply surround them, strangle their growth
>  opportunities, and then poach them when they are old enough to be
>  fair game?

Let me clear up something about colonization.  You never *take* the land of 
someone by conquering them.  You simply *conquer* them.  What this means is 
you become their King.  As their King, 20 to 30% of all production that takes 
place in their colony becomes your property.  The individual is never 
rendered helpless.

At this point, he can choose to rebuild his forces and revolt, try to find a 
way to convince you to grant him independance, ally with other conquered 
colonies, ally with other non-conquered colonies, or wait until a larger 
force comes along and conquers his King.

>  >> -- What prevents the creation and maintenance of monopolies?
>  
>  > Nothing.  To defeat a monopoly you have to play you cards right
>  > and build your own.
>  
>  Think about it -- that's not actually an answer.

Sure it is.  There's nothing more that your King can do than *own* up to 30% 
of your production.  You *can* fight your way to independance.

>  >> The main observation is that you don't actually comment about the
>  >> game design beyond the arm waving and glorious adjective stage,
>  >> which is fair, but is also difficult to comment on.  The devil is
>  >> in the details -- we all know where the mountains are.
>  
>  > I think we've stated enough for an initial website -- There's only
>  > so much you can tell people before they'll get bored by being
>  > bombarded with information.
>  
>  This list is a slightly different audience.

You're tellin' me. :)  Hopefully I've cleared some things up, and I anxiously 
await round two of "Finding The Flaw."


Daniel 
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