[MUD-Dev] Ray Feist interview

[Travis Casey]

Tuesday, January 02, 2001, 3:11:04 PM, Brian 'Psychochild' Green <brian at psychochild.org> wrote:

> After a brief visit to the significant other's parents in another
> state and recovering from the plague, I'm back in action.  Kinda.
> *cough* *hack* *cough*

Take it easy.  Drink lots of fluids.  Don't drink any solids.  :-)

>> start quote---> [Raymond Feist interview as quoted by Raph]

> My first issue was with the following:
 
>> I've tried Meridian, Ultima, and EverQuest. My playing time on each
>> is probably in the area of an hour or two, so my impressions are
>> based on limited exposure.

> An hour per game?  If I only read the first chapter of a novel,
> could I count myself informed enough to give a review?  Obviously
> not.

> Yet, Feist's statement does show us issues the online medium has to
> deal with.  First, we have not perfected our "hook".  I know of
> several friends that couldn't "get into" the first few chapters of a
> book and put it down.  A good storyteller gets the audience hooked
> into the story from the beginning.  There are several techniques for
> accomplishing this in other media, and we've only recently seen
> video games in general get more compelling hooks.  An example that
> comes to mind immediately is the intro to Half-Life.

> We also see the issue of time investment in online RPGs.  An hour of
> playing a single player game is usually enough to get a feel for the
> game.  An hour of playing solitaire is probably an overkill.  Yet,
> an hour of playing a typical MUD and you've only just started to
> scratch the surface of the game.  Is this a function of the online
> medium and the demands of large-scale multiplayer games?  Or, are
> there ways to give potential players a better taste of the game
> within an hour of playing time?

I think part of the problem is that there are really two things that
you're trying to get introduced to; the game and the community.  An
hour isn't enough time to start to get to know a community, period.

> I think the biggest flaw with this interview is that Feist, while a
> respected author, doesn't quite understand MUDs.  For example:

>> 2. Do you feel that an MMOG is capable of telling an in-depth,
>> quality story on the level of one of your novels?  No, nor would
>> you want to. RPG's and novels serve two different functions.

> RPGs and novels both serve the same function, to entertain.

I must protest here.  If you want to speak in very general terms, they
have the same function, but it should be obvious that Feist isn't
speaking in such general terms.  To give an analogy:

   > Do you think that a dump truck is capable of being as fast as a
   > race car?

   > No, nor would you want it to be.  Dump trucks and race cars serve
   > two different functions.

   Dump trucks and race cars serve the same function, to transport
   things.
   
> The difference is the interactivity.

It's far from being the only difference, when dealing with multiplayer
RPGs; the mere fact that you have multiple players brings in its own
set of problems.  More on this below.

> Feist goes on to say:

>> 3. What drawbacks do you feel there is in telling a story in an
>> MMOG?  First of all, there's no coherent single source for the
>> story.

> This doesn't make sense.  Several of my favorite stories don't have
> a "coherent single source" for the story.  For example, political
> intrigue is most interesting to read about when you know there are
> multiple forces working against each other simultaneously.  You may
> not learn all about each group's machinations all at once, but the
> best stories do let you see glimpses of what went on behind closed
> doors.

It makes perfect sense -- he's talking about the multiplayer aspect.
A story is not simply a series of events -- it's a connected narrative
of those events.  In a mud, you don't have one story happening -- you
have N stories, where N is the number of players.

In a novel, you can switch viewpoints among different characters and
weave them into a single story from the point of view of an omniscient
narrator -- but I can't see any good way to do that in a mud.

>> And usually, if you break the narrative down it reads like, "We
>> kicked down a door, killed something, got the treasure. We rested,
>> healed our wounds, and went to the next door, which we kicked down,
>> then we killed something, then got the treasure." In a story, a
>> little of that goes a long way.

> I also think this description is terribly simplistic.  I've heard of
> some great political games going on in games like Achaea that don't
> fit this description.  Even Meridian 59, crippled by it's terrible
> interface ;), had interesting events and even guild wars that were
> more complex than "beat up monsters and get treasure".

I agree with you here.  Part of that, though, is the community aspect;
as I said before, an hour is definitely nowhere near long enough to
even start to get to know a community.  To really experience a mud,
you have to become a part of the community, which takes even longer.

[snip some]

>> It's not about a story. If it was about the designers concept of
>> the story, it wouldn't be a MMOG, it would be a movie, and we'd all
>> watch it while eating popcorn. I love a good movie. Just saw
>> "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" yesterday and it was
>> incredible. It's a terrible role playing game, but then it's a
>> terrible sports car, too, if you see my point.

> I think this is the centerpiece of Feist's confusion, and perhaps
> this explains the above quote about no "coherent single source" for
> story. An online RPG isn't about a single story, it's about many
> (often simultaneous) stories.

Yep; that's exactly what I think he means.

> I recently saw the movie Feist mentioned (highly recommended), and
> agree that it is a wonderful movie.  I agree, that making an RPG
> that deals only with the story contained in that movie would be an
> awful online RPG.  Yet, the story presented in "Crouching Tiger,
> Hidden Dragon" would fit wonderfully in an online RPG with an
> appropriate setting.  This wouldn't be the only story, so it
> couldn't be the entire focus of the game.  There could easily be
> multiple stories of this type in a game.

> I think multiple simultaneous stories and lack of narrative control
> are what scare traditional storytellers about our medium.  No other
> medium offers these challenges, and it's what makes our medium so
> exciting, IMHO.

Paper RPGs can offer the same challenges; you definitely have lack of
narrative control if you're doing them properly, since the players
also have some control.  You can have multiple simultaneous stories,
since again, you have multiple players.  Some GMs run more than one
group through the same world at the same time (conceptually, not
literally -- they might have two groups that each meet once a week)
and let events "leak" from one to the other, which allows for even
more simultaneous stories.

Something I've done as a paper GM and enjoyed is run the same group,
with two different sets of characters, in the same world at the "same
time".  This lets both them and me see the same overarcing events from
very different points of view, which makes for a very interesting
experience.

Some groups have multiple GMs, who may each have their own individual
storylines.  For example, I played/GMed in a Star Trek campaign where
a friend and I took turns as GM; like a mud, this requires giving up
more narrative control (since you're sharing it with someone else on
an equal level) and creates more simultaneous stories (since we each
had our own subplots).

There are even some paper RPG groups who use what's called a "troupe"
style of play, which is close to what many MUSHes and other heavy RP
muds do; in that style, any player is allowed to come up with an run
plots, so that everyone (or at least, everyone who wants to) takes
turns as GM.

[snip the last bit, since I agree with it]

--
       |\      _,,,---,,_    Travis S. Casey  <efindel at earthlink.net>
 ZZzz  /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_   No one agrees with me.  Not even me.
      |,4-  ) )-,_..;\ (  `'-'
     '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   


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