The Permadeath of PvP (was RE: Hiding the Numbers (was Re: [MUD-Dev] Maintaining fiction.)

[Derek Licciardi]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Sheldon
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:19 AM
> To: mud-dev at kanga.nu
> Subject: The Permadeath of PvP (was RE: Hiding the Numbers (was Re:
> [MUD-Dev] Maintaining fiction.)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Mihaly
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:08 PM
> To: mud-dev at kanga.nu
> Subject: RE: Hiding the Numbers (was Re: [MUD-Dev] Maintaining fiction.)

>> I do not buy that explorers or socializers are necessarily in
>> competition with each other.

> I agree, Matt.  The belief that all four quadrants are into
> competition is simply a killer/achiever way of looking at it.  I'd
> suggest that many of those currently working on commercial MUDs
> fall into the killer/achiever category, and share this opinion of
> explorers and socializers.  It might explain why we have a swatch
> of worlds coming out that emphasize PvP (DAoC, Shadowbane, etc.)
> despite the apparently low percentage of players who actually play
> PvP in current games.  The answer to the low PvP seems to be "They
> did it wrong.  We'll do it right."  I'd argue that no more than
> the same 20% or lower -want- somebody to do it right.  The others
> simply don't want PvP.  

How this morphed into explorers and socializers being in competition
with eachother is beyond me.  The point of my original post was to
allow players to measure themselves against other players so they
can better establish a sense of identity.  Some people are content
in where they stand on the political ladder, the social ladder, or
the knowledge ladder.  In that case they use the stats the game
provides or the stats that they provide.(I have 15 maps personally
drawn or I have been to every zone in the game at least once...)
The stats are used to simply guage how they compare to their
contemporaries.  Using them to fuel competition between players is a
narrow view of what you can know using the stats.  If my goal is to
visit 90% of the areas in the game, then I accumulate a stat that
represents this personal goal.  When it is reached, it is reached
and I move on to the next goal.  Competition didn't play a part as
the process was totally internal.  If the game provided a stat for
that goal, I would not need to track it myself and it would allow me
to remain focused on the game rather than the accounting used to
manage my experiences.

My whole point about hiding or not hiding stats was missed.  In
everyday life we measure ourselves, be it for our own internal
purposes, or for an external purpose.  Using a large dose of logic
and a whole lot of intuition from our experiences we answer
seemingly simple questions in an efficient manner.  (Do I blow the
yellow light or is it too dangerous?)  The degree with which you
expose your game system needs to recreate this constant struggle
between your gut and your brain.  Over-expose your systems and the
player relies exclusively on his brain and logical thinking players
disect your game in ways you never dreamed possible.  Under-expose
the numbers and your players resort to statistical trial and error
methods to gain the understanding they need to play the game, all
the while being frustrated at the relative lack of information they
are presented.  In the latter case, intuition can not even help
because the logic side of the equation is so lacking in
understanding.  I merely tried to redefine the problem instead of
coming to a solution, in an effort to get the group out of the solid
opaque box of thinking that we have been in for years regarding this
topic.

I still believe the answer lies in the middle somewhere, though the
solution to that is much harder than defining the problem.

Derek

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