[MUD-Dev] Maintaining fiction.

[Madman Across the Water]

Matt Mihaly wrote:

> So if they change, then how do they define the character?

Ya know, the only thing I can come up with in the end, then, is that
nothing internal to the game whatsoever defines the character. Name
can be changed. Your position in the database could be changed
without notice. Skills flux. Flags change. Equipment is acquired and
given away.

Therefore I answer with what I believe, through my anecdotal
experience as a gamer, would be the answer given by most players,
who know nothing about databases, flags, or the internals of a
game. And I believe that most of them would not believe that their
equipment was a part of their character. But then, most of them
would believe their character had persisted if they had been hit
with a curse that dropped all their stats/XP to newbie level. Or if
they put in a request for a name change and it was granted.

We're not going to be able to point to any one thing and say, if
_this_ changes, it was permadeath.

Perhaps we will have to say that only total annihilation of
everything that character has touched is permadeath, because it may
be the only circumstance under which everyone will agree that it was
permadeath. In which case, I'd assert that permadeath is impossible
on any MUD that wants to keep players. :>

But while that would, indeed, qualify as permadeath, I still think
there are _useful_ definitions for permadeath that are not so
extreme.

I think that if, upon dying under the right conditions, your
character were not brought back, and you were required to start
another one, this is permadeath. If the new character gets
everything the old one had, then it isn't really starting a new
one. But, I'm going to continue to pick on Ackadia, which has both
kinds of deaths. Especially with death followed by resurrection to
contrast it with, I doubt there is anyone on Ackadia who doesn't
feel that its brand of permadeath isn't permadeath.  Their character
died, permanently. Their new one gets a consolation prize, but the
old one is still dead and gone. To their greater shame or glory.

So, I come back to what I said in an earlier email, but with more
wasted bandwidth- I feel that I know it when I see it. :>

But then, I tend towards the roleplayer side of the spectrum. So my
characters tend to have an identity. Permadeath is anything that
would cause that identity to cease.

>   - a character is defined strictly by his position in a database.
>   - a character is defined by his name.
>   - a character is defined by his non-transferable attributes.
>   - a character is defined by his non-transferable attributes and his
>     transferable attributes.
>   - a character is defined strictly within the mind of the observer.

I think I don't need to list the problems with the first four of
those.  I touched on most of them earlier anyway.

> The latter one seems to make the most sense in broad terms, but
> doesn't address the question of what is permadeath in a MUD.
 
> Think of how people take characters from MUD to MUD. The character
> is eternal, as it is more than just some database entries. If I
> meet Bob the Pirate, and have a talk with him, and come away
> thinking that Bob is a jovial reckless chap, it's not because some
> database somewhere spewed out the words "jovial reckless chap." 
> It's almost certainly because of intangibles.

A good point. I was planning on taking my UO character into UO2,
back when I a) played UO and b) thought I'd be playing UO2. But
then, UO doesn't have permadeath, so maybe that's not a very good
example.
 
Hell, as a game master, I've reused villains from campaign to
campaign.

But once we get to this level, there is no permadeath. It's an
impossibility. Once you allow for a character to move from one MUD
to another... I could have a character permadie on some MUD, then
make a new character, and make an effort to acquire all the exact
same skills, etc, and claim that I am the same person. Hell- in
various tabletop games I've played, characters have transfered
players- Sean quits, and Gary takes over playing The Black
Fox... and made him his character. So even killing the player
doesn't cut it. So permadeath is impossible.

If we disagree that permadeath is impossible, than the above can't
be the definition we want to use for permadeath. And that definition
may well be fluid- what counts as permadeath on one MUD may well not
on another- a MUD where everything about your character is equipment
vs one where there is no equipment, for example.

As for definitions of a character, as you wondered above- I think a
character is an internal representation. Some people don't think
there is any distinction between a character and a player. I
disagree- if I agreed, we'd be back at the "permadeath is killing
the player" stage.

So, the new question- what is _meaningful_ "permadeath"? Ackadia has
permadeath of a sort that has a function and it successfully serves
that function. ZAngband (my Roguelike of choice) has permadeath. You
can avoid it by abusing the saved game, but I'm among those that
don't do so, and it makes it much more meaningful when you manage to
have a winner when you know permadeath lurked around each vault.

I'm not sure where to go from here- I think permadeath can exist and
is meaningful. Aside from that it's all vague.

I never feel quite so ineloquent as when I'm trying to describe
something here. :P Bottoms up. Hopefully this was food for someone's
thoughts.

Adam B
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