[MUD-Dev2] [REPOST] Value

[Paolo Piselli]

--- Sean Howard <squidi at squidi.net> wrote:

> > "Paolo Piselli" <ppiselli at yahoo.comwrote:
> > It occured to me that this is in many ways a return to the "world" vs.
> > "amusement park" argument.  If a MMO/MUD follows a world model, then
> > it makes logical sense that you are limited by your abilities and
> > resources in where you may go.  Not everyone can climb to the top of
> > Mt. Everest.  If a MMO/MUD follows an amusement park model, well then
> > you have paid the admission fee and you may go on any ride that suits
> > you so long as you have the time to do so during your stay.  You can't
> > go on all the rides in a day and don't expects to, but you do expect
> > to have the option of going on any of them.
> 
> That's a horrible analogy, and not just because it would boil down to an
> argument over whether or not a subscription fee is the same thing as an
> admission fee.

I fail to see how the argument over worldiness vs.
parkiness reduces to a discussion of fee structure.

> When people talk about virtual worlds, they aren't  talking about a dog
> eats dog gameplay mechanic of elitist players power leveling to see
> content casual players cannot. They are talking

I am not talking about gameplay mechanics.  I am
saying that, in a world, entities have properties that
constrain their behavior.  In a world that models our
planet, the ability of a human being to climb Mt.
Everest is limited by things such as their physical
hardiness, their knowledge of the ascent, and their
posession of the neccesary gear for the trek.  These
limitations are not arbitrary "rules" imposed by the
system, they are inherent in the structure of the
world.

Perhaps you thought that I meant real-world properties
such as hand-eye coordination or free-time should
dictate virtual-world properties.  I did not mean
that.

> about a systematic approach to the simulation such that a butterfly
> flaps its wings in China and it rains in London. That's called emergent
> gameplay and it comes from unintended, but exceptional results due to the
> freedom of interacting

I disagree with the characterization of virtual world
as "a thing which has emergent gameplay".  This may be
a feature of a world, but it also exists outside the
context of virtual worlds as discussed on this list.

> elements. In an amusement park game style, there are no unintended
> interactions because it is tightly controlled. You don't get to move
> around the anamatronic Lincoln and see the wires coming out of his ass -
> you only get to see him from the angle the designers want you to. It says
> NOTHING over how much content a player deserves to participate in.

I did not mention how much content a player is
entitled to experience in my previous message.  I
conjected that if the user looks at an online
experience as a virtual park, then they would expect
to have just as much access to the "park" as everyone
else who paid the same "admission".

> In a world, virtual or not, there are not arbitrary limitations to what I
> can and can't do. Sure, there are rules, like if I don't work at Denny's,
> I may get in trouble for going back into the kitchen. But there aren't any
> rules which say I can't work at Denny's. Most

Yes there are limitations in the real world.  There
may be no rule that says you cannot sit at the bottom
of the ocean without breathing apparatus.  However,
there are certain properties of your biology that
limit how long you may engage in this behavior.

> MUDs/MMORPGs have some really stupid limitations above and beyond
> something like levels. For instance, a character may only be ONE
> class. I don't know about you, but I'm multi-talented. I'm an artist,
> writer, programmer, and occasionally, when the mood strikes, a
> philosopher. And that was yesterday. If I listed off all the variety
> of skills I've collected over my life, we'd be here all day.

That is very commendable, but I do not see how your
life experiences, or traditional class-based player
character systems contribute to the discussion of how
looking at an online experience as a virtual world or
as a virtual park shapes user expectations of that
experience.

> With your "world" argument, you are essentially stating that players
> should be treated separate but equal, and I think we

I never made such an argument.  I merely assert that
in worlds that simulate something like our own
reality, there exist limitations on what a person may
do.  I may like to dunk a basketball using my own
muscle power.  There is no "rule" that says I cannot. 
However, I cannot jump high enough to do that.  I do
not feel entitled to be able to jump high enough to
dunk a basketball because it is a natural consequence
of the structure of my body and the height of a
basketball hoop that I cannot.

> all know how well that works. I have NEVER seen a game, MMORPG or
> otherwise, that had content that one player DESERVED over another. It's
> mostly a matter of lazy or incompetent designers who have an inability
> to see the forest through the trees.

That is an awful thing to say about hardworking people
who may read this list.

> Seriously, would World of Warcraft be worse off if the instance dungeons
> scaled to the level of the party such that a single healer could find it
> just as challenging and rewarding as a group of 47 mages? People have
> gotten it into their head that when a group of players can't do content,
> it's their fault for not being good enough. I blame that retarded "risk
> equals reward" bumper sticker crap, where people have somehow mistaken
> reward to mean "advantage".

Group or solo orientation of an online game, the
reward system of an online game, player attitudes
towards players of other skill levels, and real-world
feelings of entitlement may indeed shape user
expectations of the virtual experience, but I think
these are independant from the worldiness or parkiness
of the experience.

> We need better designers. Not better players.

For parks, yes.  For worlds, well, at my present level
of the reality stack, I would much prefer that the
players get along than things get redesigned while I'm
existing in this plane.

-Paolo