[MUD-Dev] Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World]

[Matt Chatterley]

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Derrick Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Matt Chatterley wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Richard Woolcock wrote:
> > > Matt Chatterley wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Derrick Jones wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vadim Tkachenko wrote:
> > [Snipple]
> > > > Many people dislike strongly to be killed by another player. The
> > > > interesting issue is *why*
> > > 
> > > Interesting...has anyone put in any form of assassin-type mob?  I wonder if
> > > this might have a similar affect...imagine a scene like:
> > 
> > Sidenote: Could you use a symbol other than > to simulate prompt input? It
> > looks messy. :P Before going any further; yes I have an assassins guild in
> > the planning (inspired by the NightHawks from RE Feist's Riftwar series),
> > and yes; assassin NPCs will play a factor in some elements of the game.
> > Particularly if you wish to remove an annoying obstacle without soiling
> > your hands (the definition of obstacle is left to your imagination).
> 
> Hehe..just had a twisted vision of an assassin being hired to run an
> obstacle course for the player...
> 	Frothar the Slayer nimbly places a foot in each of the twelve
> 	radial tires on the ground here...

*Doh*

> > > Bubba is resting here.
> > > Bubba gurgles for a moment then slumps as the life leaves his body.
> > > You keel over, dead.
> [above example trimmed]
> > > I believe this would have a similar affect to PK, for the following 
> > > reasons:
> > > 
> > > 1) You were surprised and unprepared for the attack.
> > 
> > This is certainly a factor, but in obviously non-player provoked
> > environments (eg: when it is not a player doing the harm and you know it),
> > this tends to evoke the 'Its not fair!' reaction in players rather than PK
> > reactions, if that makes sense.
> 
> One of the favorite PK places in one pk mud I played was a shop which had
> an extremely long inventory list.  Bubba would be paging thru many pages
> of (store) inventory text trying to find some rare item of interest, only
> to be 95% of the way dead when he left his scrollback buffer.  Enough
> people complained about the practice, and the shop owner began jumping
> into fights.  Whoever the shop owner attacked, always lost.

Phenomenally annoying, and a reasonable solution, I suppose. Nothing to
theoretically stop this happening on my game, except shops do not use such
lists of inventory. Perhaps one problem would be when a player is in an
'edit mode' such as the newsreader, though, hence I think I will remove
players from IC concerns when they are doing this (completely remove them
from the game).
 
> > Of course, blurring lines between players
> > and NPCs, and generally making a point out of 'PK' NOT being a special
> > case might help..
> 
> This is true. Also, blurring the lines between PC and NPC would give
> players a more equal chance of surviving both an attack by PC and NPC, and
> they would happen at more similar frequencies. One thing to note about why
> PC on PC combat is a big deal...It doesn't happen very often (the most
> hard-core pk muds like Genocide excluded), and it therefore sticks out
> from the 1000 mobiles that rolled over and died that evening.  Also a
> curious trend...dispite al the attention pks get, they are rare. comments?

*Definitely*. Balance is often skewed so that players dish out more damage
faster (and NPCs have more hitpoints to account for this - in a typical
example), so PC against PC is rather short and brutal. PCs and NPCs are
equal in terms of mechanics for me, which definitely helps here.

PK is far rare than say.. killing NPCs, but it does depend. I think it is
a case of a lot of fuss over a rare event making it seem far more common
than it is. I think my players will be more shocked that if they attack
that poor peasant in the town and chop him up, they will be arrested for
murdering him in cold blood.
 
> > > 2) You were busy talking, and not really interesting in fighting.
> > > 3) You were killed by an opponent you couldn't ever hope to beat.
> > 
> > All undeniable. :)
> This isn't always the case.  True 'jerk' pk holds this to be axiomatic
> though.

Of course. By quite literally encouraging PK in many instances (for
instance, an Assassins guild which will ask its PC members to execute both
PCs and NPCs based on pay offs from various sources, and random factors -
you could consider such executions to be 'quests' if you like), I
partially circumvent this. Only partially, and only in that more equal PK
attempts will be more common.

Players seem to love killing each other in arenas where neither loses
anything in their death too (slightly hypocritical?), so I have allowed
for 'non lethal' combat (basically unarmed combat - it renders the looser
unconcious unless certain lethality options are on, a rare series of
criticals occurs, excessive damage is done, and so forth). This does mean
that 'bar room brawls' involving fists, and the odd piece of furniture
could conceivably break out, without any NPCs or PCs dying, or anyone
being charged with anything serious.
  
> > > Basically, its just not fair.  Like many instances of PK.
> 
> Hrm...fair to the attacker alright. more than fair.  That's why they
> attack...

Yup. Is this just 'Its not fair - I lost, and it was beyond my control!'
syndrome? I remember this from a lot of old video games (the boss appears,
and pounds you to death in three seconds flat, before you can even push
'b').
 
> > > The only real difference between this and PK is that mobs don't usually
> > > brag about killing you afterwards - although I know one mud where some
> > > of the mobs used to shout "I killed <name>, and looted his stinking 
> > > corpse!" - but even this is somewhat inpersonal and thus not so insulting.
> > 
> > Heh. :)
> > I wonder, why do players brag about this, and can it be avoided?
> 
> I have a preliminary sketch of a crude justice system for keeping pk
> minimalized, and pretty much out of civilized towns.  Here a few of the
> points:

Ling quite correctly noted in personal email to me that the bragging and
such can be attributed to what one might call 'penis waving', I should
note. I don't know that I actually want to minimise PK, but I certainly
want it extremely rare in civilised areas (public areas in towns and
cities should be safe places).
 
> The code allows for Pk just about everywhere.  There are a few OOC areas
> where _no_ combat takes place, mainly designed to sit around and shoot the
> OOC breeze.  The game essentially stops for these areas, and the mud
> becomes a talker there...).

My code allows for PK in absolutely all IC environments. Inside
'legalised' areas (most parts of cities except bad areas such as the 'Ankh
Morpork Shades', and other notable exceptions), you are likely to receive
a reprisal from the law, or a private justice force (eg: If you pounce
someone in the kings palace, his guards may choose to disembowel you on
the spot).
 
> Each town has its own law code and law enforcement (police).  Pk is pretty
> much universally outlawed within town limits.

Same here, see above though for exceptions. If we have a town called
Ferelio, which contains King Cerela's palance, within the town, the
Ferelioan(?!) guards will quite happily duff up wrong-doers and toss them
in a cell (assuming they can be captured), except in Blood-run alley,
where they are afraid to go. In the kings palace (still within the city),
the guards have no jurastiction, and the kings guards will execute any
troublemakers on the spot, with no appeal.
 
> Any crime committed will be logged.  If the crime is reported within 10
> minutes, the police will investigate (seeminly running around finding
> clues to observers, but in reality its a log check, with a chance to
> 'miss' the log entry which means no evidence was discovered).  The victim
> cannot report his own attack (he's dead...duh), but any PC or NPC can file
> a report (perhaps the Shiriff won't believe outsiders?) which triggers an
> nivestigation.  If sufficient evidence is found, the PC is branded an
> outlaw(descriptions posted, refused aid by most towns, hunted by police)
> and is punished upon capture.  (I don't like forcing players to sit thru
> trials).  NOTE: there will be a penalty for filing a false report, so if
> Boffo shouts "I just Pk'ed XXX!!", you better make sure he actually did.

This is definitely one way of doing it, and stonkingly similar to my
approach. I also note down any crimes committed, and allow a half hour for
reports (if there are NPC witnesses who would be likely to be believed, or
a believable PC turns up, this is a report), and so forth things continue.
Your reputation in a town counts heavily on if you are believed or not,
and how badly punished you get. Reports against the king, or a well-known
hero are likely to be dismissed on the spot unless you are of similar
stature, in which case, the guards will likely bow out and assume you will
conduct your own justice.

Guards also perform the secondary function of protecting the town from
invasion (this is to be common in some places). For instance, One of the
countries in my world has a border line north of which tribes of orcs
roam, and south of which lies human civilisation (original, huh?). Towns
near the border (on either side) are regularly (pseudo-regularly) raided
by the other side. The guards in the town will attempt to repel intruders,
and of course, anyone else inside is welcome to help (there may be
rewards!).
 
> So if our beloved Bubba is beheaded by Boffo who begins to boast
> boistrously, anyone hearing the Boffo can report him to the local
> athorities.  ALSO NOTE: Boffo cannot brag to Bubba unless Boffo happens to
> possess the ability to 'speak with dead', so taunting after a pk will have
> to be delayed until Bubba manages to reform his corpeal being.

Heh. :)

Regards,
	-Matt Chatterley
	ICQ: 5580107
"I shall never believe that God plays dice with the world." -Einstein