[MUD-Dev] "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?)

[msew]

At 15:27 12/11/2000 -0700, Travis Nixon wrote:

> Sorta crossing threads here, and still speaking about Everquest,
> because that's what I've been playing lately, but there was a
> comment in another thread from Brad McQuaid about camping, and how
> they're disappointed that people won't 'do' dungeons.  But the fact
> of the matter is, people won't 'do' dungeons because in most cases,
> it's too dangerous, or the reward is nowhere near the risk.  And as
> time goes on, it just becomes more and more dangerous, because as
> they're tuning places so that they're a challenge for campers,
> they're completely blowing the dungeon crawlers out of the water.
> It's not just about items.  It's about not dying.  To 'do' the
> typical dungeon in everquest requires a very well organized group of
> the appropriate classes.  Those types of groups really just aren't
> all that common, in my experience.

> But I will say that when you can get one of those groups together,
> the way the EQ team wants you to play dungeons is such an absolute
> blast that I haven't cancelled my account yet, even after being
> thrown out of the Vale.  There's a dungeon some friends and I have
> been frequenting lately (Kaesora) that is so much fun it's hard to
> believe it's EQ.  But you know what?  Without a very well tuned
> group full of members who know how to play their classes well, it's
> suicide.  And that's why nobody 'does' dungeons.  I would personally
> say that there's already too much of a deterrent keeping players
> away from lethal pursuits.  No need to add more, at least not for
> EQ.

The problem with "doing a dungeon" is that there is no point.  Why
bother.  The fact that you "did it" from start to finish gives you
nothing extra.  It is better to sit at a camp and get safe exp and go
for specific item(s).

Further, the only dungeon that is really set up as a dungeon crawl is
Howling Stones.  HS explicitly has an uber mob at the end, with uber
loot (Necklace of Superiority aka NOS).  Certainly other dungeons have
some big mobs deep in them that you have to move through the dungeon
to get to them (Chardok semi being another) but most of the dungeons
really are just areas with (eerily) clearly defined camping areas.
Check out Seb for a nice example of completely separated portions of
the dungeon where groups basically can not interfere nor even see the
other people in the dungeon.


The fact that every zone in the game quickly gets specific areas named
by the players, and that the players are able to basically hold those
areas indefinitely means that they are camps.  Even with the "new"
randomized loot tables, they are still camps.  You get to a place in
the dungeon where the set of PCs you have in your group can hold/play
safe and then you just start the slaughtering.

IMO until there is some designing of a dungeons that have some sort of
"boss" at the end and some sort of progressing through the dungeon,
people are going to just find a spot in the dungeon where they are
able to set up shop and kill the mobs indefinitely.

With all of the great console games with the bosses and progressing
through the level to fight the boss, I am pretty surprised that we
have not seen something similar yet.  Certainly this means yet more
areas created but isn't that what these worlds are meant to be?  A
place where there are literally hundreds of dungeons and warrens and
places to explore and conquer and die in.  Sure there can be a couple
of MEGA dungeons that people hang out in and such but in every fantasy
book I have read the heros were never fighting over who gets to camp
the Ghoul Lord and if they could get on the list to join that camp.
:-)


Also there needs to be some "scoring" metric used for telling the
world at large that Bubba that 15th lvl fighter has gone into the
Dungeon Of Doom and killed Gumba the One Eyed Ogre.  Whether this is a
Deeds list or some other reward metric it needs to be there.




msew

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