[MUD-Dev] "Doing a dungeon" (was: Permadeath or Not?)

[msew]

At 10:43 02/22/2001 +0100, Vincent Archer wrote:
>According to msew:
> > hard to understand why the console games can make the uber boss mob at
> > the end of the level and have it balanced, yet the mmp world can't :(
>
> Because, basically, in the console game, you have two premises:
>
> 1) the end boss is the challenge. The rest is cakewalk
> 2) you know exactly whose forces are arrayed and can scale the strength
>         of the boss.

I disagree.  you know the min and the max force that can be arrayed
against you.  Based on what the character does during that lvl
(powerups, extra lives based on score, weapons picked up, etc etc) and
what possible maximal and minimal state they could have on entering
that level.  you have to make the mob on AVERAGE a tough battle for
all such states. ie a totally buffed guy will have an easier time
killing the boss than a unbuffed guy and you don't want it impossible
for the people that just suck to enter the level with min state and
finish that level with min state for that level.

> > quick dirty example:
> >
> >   uber mob is balanced for 10 lvl 50 characters.
> >
> >   uber mob sees that there are 40 characters.
> >
> >   uber mob /shouts to the zone: "I see you have brought a host against
> >   me!  i shall fight fire with fire!  Minions to me!"

> That's where it breaks down. A good example is Cazic Thule in
> Everquest.  He does exactly this. Of course, the host has already
> killed about every single mob in the area, so there's none to
> summon. You need to create new ones - fiction breaks down :)

you can NOT kill CT without killing basically everything on PoF. (ie
that is the purpose of that zone to kill all the mobs and then whack
CT) Well you couldn't before the expansions, you might be able to kill
some % of PoF now and then surgical strike and then CR all your
chanters and kiters afterwards.

why does fiction break down?  CT is the avatar of a GOD.  I would hope
that this being can summon some compatriots to help him, after all he
can DT people from across the zone.

People are too stuck on: Well we killed all the pops where it is 100%
safe.  or perhaps the game design is forcing them in that direction.

> The added difficulty, in a large multiplayer world is: how does the
> boss determine that there are 40 characters *against* him? Maybe
> there's a group of 5 who are there for a different reason. Or you
> have two separate group of 20, on who was readying itself to rush,
> and one who just entered the dungeon.

> And the first group wonder afterward why they got pounded into the
> ground so fast :)

This is a technical and statistical issue and therefore 100% solvable.
Even in EQ, they have "portions" of the zone that the game engine
knows about (ie the zone in areas in Velious).

It is not hard to map out regions of the zones and assign them labels.


  if N PCs are in ubermob area:
    if N > designed difficulty:
      increase difficulty up to some maximal difficulty


  if ubermob was attacked in last N seconds:
    if number of PCs in ubermob area just increased by N:
      I am being wave attacked, call for minions to attack the camped
      people

etc etc etc

100% the PCs are going to out think what ever AI/strategy you have
decided.  But what occurs now is: mob needs 10 people to kill it with
50% chance.  uberguild says: "ok gang all 50 of us will be able to
rock it no prob" and they go and crush it.

when the AI in EQ is changed and we all get beaten down after N
complete slaughterings of some ubermob, it is a breath of fresh air in
the repetitious: kill loot tp to next zone kill loot tp to next zone
kill loot.

I guess the generalized question is:

  how does one deal with this fact:

for any encounter you design, at some difficulty level that takes a
certain amount of power to overcome, the players will always just
bring more power with them.

I see:

     -better AI

     -dynamically altering the power of the mob to better match the
     designer's specified level of difficulty

     -let players crush the mobs easily

     -"artificially?" limit the amount of power they can bring (ie the
     console games probably know the max amount of power you can have
     so they can make certain on average the mob meets the difficulty
     lvl desired)

     -statically update the mob so it is stronger (thus entering the
     arms race with the players and eventually setting the lower bound
     on the killability of that mob to that of the best players in the
     game skill/power level (ie only the best guild on the server can
     kill the mob))

      -take mob out of the game (this occurred on sojourn when the
      guild I was in was able to kill tiamat 100% of the time with
      like 1-2 losses if that) (usually occurs when all else has
      failed to stop the players)

      -remove any incentive for killing the mob by the uber people (ie
      if we can't stop the best guilds from just punishing this poor
      mob day in and day out, make it so they don't want to)

as some options.   what others did I miss?

msew













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