[MUD-Dev] About Fencing (was: mass customisation)

[Sean Kelly]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Greg Titus wrote:
 
> It really depends upon what form of sword fighting you are
> attempting to model. SCA style broadsword bashing, Kendo, the many
> different martial arts that include sword forms, et cetera. Stage
> fencing (which is its own speciality and training) _looks_ a lot
> like what you are describing above, except of course, that the
> actual purpose is to make the fight look good, not to try to kill
> the other guy.

Yup.  Real sword fighting is, for the most part, quick, efficient,
and brutal.  Except when you're wearing full plate armor and it more
consists of a lot of bashing each other until someone gets tired :)

> But I'm a foil fencer, so when you say fencing, I think of the
> sport with saber, foil, or epee.
 
> Foil fencing is originally based on sword-armed infantry
> practice. The foil is a long, thin sword with a point and no
> blade. The idea was to pierce the guy in front of you in the
> vitals as quickly as possible so he can't pierce you, then move
> on. Almost any hit to the body was quickly incapacitating, while
> almost any hit to the limbs was nearly useless (and likely to get
> your blade caught, resulting in _you_ becoming quickly
> incapacitated).

I would say that this is where epee came from (the epee is heavy and
stiff, a lot like a short rapier, while foils are extremely
flexible).  IMO the foil technique was later added as a gentleman's
version of the practice, as it incorporates things like
right-of-way, a limited target area, and a thin, flexible blade that
is unlikely to really hurt anybody.  Sabre is the flashiest of the
three, though it still incorporates right-of-way and a limited
(though larger) target area, like foil.  Epee is basically a free
for all, and even allows body contact.

> Fencing is very fast. It makes a terrible spectator sport because
> (a) it is over so quickly and (b) usually the untrained eye can't
> even see what happened. You go back and forth on the strip,
> maintaining distance, with a few feints and quick changes to try
> to wrong foot your opponent. When you sense an advantage, you
> attack -- preferably with a particular sequence in mind -- and
> there is a flurry where you react without thinking. Most of the
> time resulting in a touch. If not, get distance, settle yourself,
> and repeat.

This is true of foil and even moreso of sabre.  Epee points tend to
last a tad longer though they rarely go over perhaps 60 seconds.
One thing I've noticed with sabre is that because of right-of-way,
points frequently depend on who gains right-of-way after the judge
gives the opponents the go-ahead, and rarely go longer than a single
exchange.

> It is mostly about training your arm and your footwork to react
> instinctively. You also train your eye to see that your opponent
> tends to lean forward too far in en garde position exposing the
> shoulder to an easy flick, or almost always does their circular
> parries counter-clockwise. That sort of thing.

Like all combat.

> Would modeling this make a good game? Hard to say. I'd sure love
> to try it. But I think the style of system that modeled foil
> fencing would look a lot like "Firetop Mountain"
> <http://www.gamerz.net/~fm/>. Lots of feints. Worrying about
> having the right timing. Then the results unfolding simultaneously
> and quickly. It seems like it'd result in a lot of fast player
> deaths.

It would be interesting trying to integrate a level-based system
with an active combat system like this.

> Speaking of which, the other game that has the same sort of 'feel'
> as fencing to me is the RPG "Paranoia". You go along for a while,
> trying to be careful, trying to figure out what is going on, then
> BAM you just died. The weapons were so deadly (and the excuses to
> use them on each other so plentiful) that each character had a
> number of clones (5? 6?) to replace yourself because you expected
> to die a couple times on each adventure.

Fantastic game, paranoia :) For fencing though, remember that there
are 5 points to a bout.  Epee touches are often on the sword hand or
sword arm... it might take more than one hit to kill someone.  It
would be especially nice if some target areas granted more points
than others.  I used to be fond of the toe-touch :)

Sean

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