[MUD-Dev] ghost mode (was Re: SW:G)

[Rayzam]

From: "Amanda Walker" <amanda at alfar.com>
> Rayzam <rayzam at travellingbard.com> wrote:

>> When ghosting is around there are a few issues that get derived
>> from it:

>>   1) scouting - Ghosts can scout ahead and tell a party what
>>   monsters are waiting and where. They can search around safely
>>   figuring out solutions to puzzles.

> That all depends on how it's implemented.  Remember that I did
> suggest that quest areas could be fenced off, for example, or that
> a ghost couldn't interact with the world (thus making it
> impossible to open closed doors, etc.).  I wasn't proposing
> "noclip, debug, pop the hood entirely off" mode, just a
> "sightseeing" mode.  An idea, not a spec :-).

Okie dokes. Though, if its a place you can get to regularly, why do
it as a sightseer? Also, I bet some of the more interesting content
is behind such areas, at least in terms of value-scarcity.

>>   They can do all manner of things that removes the excitement
>>   and edginess of not quite knowing what's around. If you've
>>   played any RTS-style games, it's very much like the difference
>>   between having and not having the Fog of War. There's more
>>   tension, and more involvement for me at least, by having a fog
>>   of war.

> ... If you like that sort of thing.  I don't think that the only
> purpose of a virtual world is to provide a context for combat.

No, that's true. Though right now, the 2 main purposes the current
virutal worlds provide is combat and social interaction. Maybe I'm
cynical in not believing that viewing content alone is currently an
available product. Maybe in Uru.

>>   A little bit of randomization aids in keeping content fresh,
>>   but there's no point in having that if it can be free scouted.

> On the other hand, having it fenced off with a combat requirement
> represents a pure cost to some of us.  I'll reiterate that I find
> mud/mmorpg combat to be an utter waste of time.  If I want to kill
> stuff (which I sometimes do), I have combat games for those.  PvE
> (Halo, Unreal II), PvP (Q3, UT), duel (DOA3), whatever, all of
> which provide a combat experience orders of magnitude better than
> any MMO game currently out there.

True, fencing it off with combat is a cost, as you point out. I
suppose I'm narrowmindedly considering the combat as the
content. Wide open spaces in most MMOs are boring to traverse. The
ones I've played just aren't as visually enjoyable as say Syberia.

What MMO would you play for sightseeing?

> I love puzzles.  However "figure out how to kill n orcs in a row
> before they respawn" is not a terribly interesting puzzle.  "Wow,
> there's a door up here.  I wonder how I can get my character up
> here..." is much more fun, for me (many of AC1's quests were quite
> fun in this respect).

I missed out on AC1. For the puzzle solving, I like computer
adventure games [hence Syberia, noted above].

But in AC1, you could see areas that you then had to puzzle out how
to reach? Sort of like in the Tomb Raider series?

>>   3) Lack of socializing. If you can ghost through and see the
>>   content, you've no need of others.

> Why not?  Is content appearance the *only* thing you ever
> socialize about?

Well, if a ghost doesn't interact with the environment, I was
assuming the ghost wouldn't be talking to others, wouldn't need
others, would just consume content without giving anything back.

>>   Some content, in a combat-oriented game, requires people
>>   working together to get to. Ghosts go through without
>>   that. Some is dangerous and may need a higher level character
>>   to clear it.

> Indeed.  On the other hand, "going through it" is quite a
> different thing that observing it in ghost mode.  Consider a Quake
> 3 level.  Before the game starts, I can zip around peeking at
> corners to my heart's content.  But seeing the content is not at
> all the same as playing the content.  The playfield doesn't have
> to be secret in order to be fun.

Point taken. But here, you're scouting the field in advance. You're
not really wandering around enjoying the view?

>>     As you pointed out: ghosting is no different than a higher
>>     level character clearing the dungeon. I wholeheartedly
>>     disagree. In that case, the player is interacting with
>>     another player.

> Er, no.  I pointed out that a ghost serving as scout is no
> different from a high level player acting as scout, except that
> the ghost can't assist as much.

But the players have to know a high level player. They have to talk
to the high level player. The high level player has to talk to
them. Note that each and every stage of this is interaction between
players. This is the second half of what I think games provide:
socialization. Now take the same scenario with a ghost mode. Player
makes a ghost and wanders through, noting where things are, and
isn't attacked, nor has any fear of interaction.  Player then goes
back in as the real character. No interaction. I'm all for
player-player interaction, and consider that an important difference
between the higher level player as a scout vs the ghost.

>>   4) No pain, no gain. I'm an explorer type, but I gain a bigger
>>   feeling of accomplishment by earning my way there.

> So earn your way there.  It's like playing a console game on
> "don't hurt me" mode (or god mode) in order to familiarize
> yourself with the playfield before turning on "insanity" mode and
> actually playing it.  Ghosting around gets you no xp, no loot, no
> quest reward, etc.  It's not experiencing the content, it's just
> viewing it.

>>   A new room is much more satisfying if I had to solve a puzzle,
>>   fight my way in, etc, than just another room I walked into
>>   easily. I don't know, but I would guess that if I ghosted
>>   through an area, seeing every nook and cranny, I wouldn't enjoy
>>   it as much.

> I know from repeated experience that I enjoy combat areas and
> quests a lot more when I know where I'm going.  Maybe this is one
> of those "asking for directions" things :-)...

Heh. I never thought of it that way, but you nailed me on that
one. I don't ask for directions :) Don't hand me a map either!

rayzam
www.travellingbard.com
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